Help - developer volumes and development times

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OM man

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I'm looking for some help with powder developer volumes and film development times.

I have been reading through Kodak's data sheets for D76 and XTOL in preparation of developing my first films with these developers.

The D76 data sheet states that at 1:1 dilution, 473ml of solution should be used (IE 237ml of working solution and an equal quantity of water) for each 35mm roll. I will be using Paterson tanks, which require at least 290ml of solution per 35mm roll, and at 1:1 dilution this seems quite straight forward - i'll mix up 473ml of solution and, to start, i will use Kodak's published development times.

To me it gets confusing when i'm thinking of what to do when using the working solution. Am i correct in assuming that the published development times are correct when using 237ml of undiluted developer? If so, i require at least 290ml per 35mm roll and as this larger volume of solution would have more active ingredients, should the development times be adjusted?

This gets more confusing when reading the XTOL sheet. Kodak state that at least 100ml of working strength developer is required per film. Their tables have the development times for full strength developer and at 1:1 dilution - i assume the times are for the 100ml of working strength solution. Therefor as i require 290ml per film (IE 290ml full strength with no dilution or 145ml at 1:1 dilution) do the published times need to be adjusted? I assume that they would require adjustment as the level of active ingredients vary.

I apologise if this is a stupid noob question and if i have made up a problem that does not exist, but i would appreciate any help that you can offer in getting my head around this.
 
This is interesting. I never bothered to read the D-76 data sheet. 😱

I can tell you that mixing up 300ml of working solution (150ml D-76, 150ml tap water) for a Paterson single roll tank has always worked for me. I follow the massive dev chart for times: www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.php.

I suspect that using less developer per roll than Kodak recommends has a minor effect, less than other variables such as agitation style, exact timing incl. filling and emptying, and such. Hopefully someone with more experience can fill us in.

Using less than the recommended volume of active developer is quite the norm with Rodinal. People use it at 1:50, 1:100, even 1:200 and compensate with really long dev time. Works for them, and now that my D-76 is finally used up, I'll give it a try.
 
There is a note on the D76 data sheet (I can't be bothered to check, but I believe it is page 2 on the right column, 2/3rd of the way down, otherwise it is on the last page) which says to increase listed time by 10% for smaller volumes when using D76 1:1. Of course, you don't have to worry about reusing it, so the question arises as to why you would ever use larger volumes of it...
 
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Thanks for the responses.

Batterytypehah - thanks for sharing your experience. It's good to know that i can use less developer at the 1:1 dilution and rely on the digitaltruth.com times.

Degruyl - you have a good memory! On the second page of the data sheet it states that you can use 237ml of total solution at 1:1 dilution by increasing the published development times by 10%. Unfortunately i need 290ml to immerse the film.

To clarify, i am happy with using D76 at 1:1 dilution as Kodak are quite clear with the amount of stock solution to use per film and it is fair to assume that their development tables were produced with these volumes in mind.

But, what volume of full strength D76 solution should be used per film to rely on their times? Is it 237ml of stock solution (per the minimal amount required to make the 1:1 dilution which is also approximately in line with the 250ml of developer that Troop quotes in the Film Developer Cookbook). If it is, do i need to make an adjustment to the development times when using 290ml, which is the minimum amount of developer that i can use in my tank? I suspect that there will be an adjustment, as there are additional active ingredients, but in the case of D76 the adjustment is likely to be minimal. However, in the case of XTOL where Kodak claim 100ml is required to develop 1 film but my tank requires 290ml the margin for error is far greater.

I hope this rambling makes sense for someone to provide a definitive answer and help clarify my understanding.
 
This is your initial foray into developing, right?

It is not an exact science: everyone develops slightly differently, and even the tap water you use can effect the developing time. I would start with Kodak's time + 10% for 290ml (your meter is almost certainly off more than the chemical difference between 237 and 290, and I suspect they used 8 oz, not 237 ml).

Try it, adjust it, try it again. It is something of a learning process, but Kodak (and massive dev chart) provide a good starting point.

BTW: I use 250ml for smallest tank, 500 for 2 roll / 1 roll 120, and 1 l for 4 roll / 2 roll 120.
 
Degruyl - what would you suggest as the adjustment with XTOL where there is nearly a 200% difference? I know that there is a lot of trial and error but i am also just trying to understand the science behind it and take some of the guesswork out of the process.
 
Thanks Larry, as developer is so cheap i will probably only use it as one shot. You mention using 100ml - 70ml of XTOL but to submerge the film i require at least 290ml, nearly 3 times what Kodak suggest!
 
Chemistry hat, on:

Above a certain minimum concentration, the amount of developer does not have much effect.

Contrariwise, if you are using very dilute solutions (Rodinal above 1+50, for example) you really need to watch your minimum developer requirements, as you could leave the film in the soup forever and it would not develop.

So, to answer your question: don't worry too much above the minimum.

Now, maybe someone who uses XTOL can chime in, because I am going on straight theory.
 
Thanks David - that makes sense. However, what is the minimum amount of D76 (at full strength) required to optimally develop 1 film? Is my 237ml assumption correct - there is nothing on the data sheet?
 
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The minimum amount to develop is far far less than the 237 ml you quote. If that were anywhere near the amount, you would not be able to reuse the developer. The reason Kodak uses those numbers is to provide "the most consistent" values. With quite a lot of safety margin, actually. You can definitely, safely, use 125ml developer + 125ml water. I suspect the minimum possible is somewhere less than 50ml developer, but don't bother. D76 is cheap, as noted, and you would be on your own trying to figure out the time requirements.

For example (and I am going to use Rodinal as an example, because I do use it at very low concentrations): you need 3 ml / roll of film with Rodinal. To do stand processing, you should be very close to that limit so that you can achieve all the benefits of stand processing, such as they are, without overdeveloping. So, when you want to use at least 300 ml for a roll of 35mm film and 1+100 Rodinal. For 120 film, where you need 500 ml of liquid to cover, you lower the concentration to 1+125 or 1+150. (For a sheet of 8x10, with 1.25 l to cover, and the same area as a roll of 35 mm film, you need to lower the concentration quite a bit or shorten the developing time from 1 hour to 30 minutes or so).

In other words, if you are not near the 1 hour mark in developing times, you are not anywhere near the limits of how little developer you need to process the negative.

I honestly hope that this is helping, because I suspect you are overthinking it. I am worried, a little, that I am confusing the situation.

Short answer: don't worry too much (with D76 or XTol or any other standard developer) about "too little to process the film" but do apply the 10% correction. Your developer will go twice as far.

You need 8oz (about 250 ml) of almost any developer after dilution for a roll of 35mm equivalent. Unless it is radically diluted. Only HC-110 and Rodinal are commonly used at such low dilutions that it makes sense to talk about exhaustion in a once through system.
 
David thanks for your response - i understand and agree with your comments but i think my question has been misunderstood.

Hopefully the following will help clarify and provide some background for my questions:

1. In the Film Developing Cookbook (FDC) it states that to ensure full development of all images at least 250ml of undiluted developer should be used (the author uses D76, XTOL, Microdol X as examples). He further states that to maintain quality and consistency at least the following volumes should be used:

-undiluted developer - 250ml (EG D76 stock)
-diluted developer - 500ml (EG D76 1:1)
-very dilute - 1000ml (EG: D76 1:3)

2. In the FDC it further states that although the amounts may sound extreme, saving on developer is "penny wise and pound foolish", moreover, it claims that you can never maintain quality and consistency, even if the results appear adequate.

3. The above thinking appears to be in line with Kodak's D76 technical sheet (for the reasons mentioned in my earlier postings.

4. I am aware that with the appropriate time and temperature adjustments (depending on your budget or goal) numerous developer:water ratios can be used. I am lucky enough to have a number of various sized tanks, am ultimately looking to maintain quality and consistency and i intend to do this by starting with the optimal volumes of 'one shot' working solutions.

Now if i can use Ilford ID11 as a further example. Ilford have published development times for ID11 at 3 dilutions: stock, 1:1 and 1:3. The question is what volume of working solution do these times relate to. For example:

1. Stock - its fair to assume that the time is a good starting point for between 250-300ml (i will use 300ml from herein) of stock solution per film

2. 1:1 - is the time given for 300ml (150ml dev + 150ml water) or 600ml (300ml dev + 300ml water) of working solution?

3. 1:3 - is the time given for 300ml (75ml dev + 225ml water) or 1200ml (300ml dev + 900ml water) of working solution?

At the 1:1 and 1:3 dilutions there is material difference between the 2 volumes of developer used and the active ingredients within the working solution, therefore, the published times can not be correct for each scenario. So, which volume do the times correspond to? I suspect that i should be using the larger volumes but why is this not made clear in the technical sheets!

After giving this some though i am (i think!) happy to assume that with D76, which is what i will be using, i can safely use Kodak's published times as a starting point, for optimal and consistent results, by using the following volumes:

1. Stock - 290ml per film [minimum amount required for my tank - slight adjustment may be required due to the additional volume of developer (290-237ml=53ml of additional developer)]

2. 1:1 - 473ml of working solution per film (237ml dev + 237ml water) [per Kodak instructions]

Someone please correct me if this is incorrect.

With XTOL my thinking is further confused as Kodak "recommend always starting with at least 100ml of full-strength developer to prepare the diluted solution for each 135-36 or 120 roll....For example, when processing 4 rolls off film with developer diluted 1:1, use at least 800ml even if the processing equipment will allow the use of less solution."

Again, with the XTOL data sheet Kodak make no reference as to what working solution volumes their times relate to, which of course clouds the issue. For example:

1. Stock - taking into account the above Kodak quote, do their times refer to the use of only 100ml of solution per film? This of course is not possible for me as my tanks require 300ml. Therefore, are the times still valid if i use this (300ml) volume of full strength solution? Does the additional volume of stock solution have any impact upon their times?

2. 1:1 - I cant process using the Kodak example (IE 200ml of diluted working solution, which will not cover the film). Again are their times for 200ml of working solution (100ml dev + 100ml water) or some other volume? And, as I need at least 300ml of working solution, do i use 150ml dev + 150ml water and if so are the published times correct for this combination?

3. XTOL can also be used at 1:2 and 1:3 but, as there are no times in the data sheet and (believe it or not) i'm trying to keep this simple, i wont try and confuse the issue any further!

I hope the above makes sense and helps you to understand the reasons for my confusion and why i have started this thread. Apologies to any member if the above has caused their head to hurt!

Any help in getting my head around this is truly appreciated.

Thanks, Jag
 
OM man said:
1. In the Film Developing Cookbook (FDC) it states that to ensure full development of all images at least 250ml of undiluted developer should be used (the author uses D76, XTOL, Microdol X as examples). He further states that to maintain quality and consistency at least the following volumes should be used:

-undiluted developer - 250ml (EG D76 stock)
-diluted developer - 500ml (EG D76 1:1)
-very dilute - 1000ml (EG: D76 1:3)

2. In the FDC it further states that although the amounts may sound extreme, saving on developer is "penny wise and pound foolish", moreover, it claims that you can never maintain quality and consistency, even if the results appear adequate.
Click to expand...

Wow.

For me, if the "results appear adequate"... they are. You may as well use D76 straight and discard it afterward, because there is no reason to dilute this developer. (Lengthening the developing time is not really good, unless you want larger grain and increased contrast). You will still only get 8 rolls per gallon, but at least you save one measuring step.

You cannot maintain consistency anyway: the main variable is time. If the developer is sitting around in a half full vessel, mixed, it will oxidize. The best you can do is reduce the time effect by using up the gallon quickly, and by using a floating roof container (or collapsible, it is the same thing) to get the air out.

Most people have a greater than 10% deviation from one to the next in filling / emptying and agitation speed. Put your effort into consistency with this.

I am going to give up now. The Kodak (and FDC) advice is not wrong, per se. It is excessive based on my experience, but it will not hurt.

Use 16oz of D76 1+1, try the times on the datasheet, and relax. If it makes you feel better, someone at Kodak is thanking you.
 
Dear Jag,

Xtol is seriously weird. It is supposed to require certain minimum quantities, but when I queried this with one of its inventors, the answer I got was pretty much 'Because it does!' I cannot presume to answer any questions about Xtol, except to say, "Cover the film at the recommended dilution with the recommended amount of developer."

All normal developers are normally present in gross excess, and exhaustion is not an issue, though with a very few (eg PMK) the developer may oxidize before it has finished its job.

For an understanding of 'gross excess', consider a 2-bath developer with (let's say) 2 g/l of metol and 5 g/l of hydroquinone. At most about 20 ml of this is imbibed by the film (actually, most of it goes to wetting the tank). That's ALL the developing agent that's needed. The actual developer amounts are therefore tiny. Alternatively consider the development and fixing of a sheet of 4x5 inch Polaroid by a couple of teaspoons of (admittedly highy concentrated) developer.

Most of the developer is there to cover the film and to wet it quickly and evenly. This is how you can get away with about half as much developer in a rotary tank such as a CPE-2 as you need for the same tank filled conventionally.

After that (except with Xtol and some very fast-oxidizing developers), time/temperature are independent of volume, as long as the film is covered.

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

R.
 
Stick to 1 developer, e.g. ID11, no need to make it too complicated before you have even started.

5 liters of stock ID11 can develop 50 films (from datasheet).
100 ml of stock can develop 1 film
Your tank needs about 300 ml to cover 1 film in developer

You have 3 choices
1. Use 300 ml stock -> it can be reused 3 times (300 ml / 100 ml pr film = 3)
2. Use 150 ml stock and 150 ml water (1:1) - should not be reused
3. Use 100 ml stock and 300 ml water (1:3) - should not be reused

Develop to the times from the film box or just go to the massive dev chart.
You can also download a time converter table for different temperatures (warmer developer shorter dev time, colder dev longer dev time)

Apparently D76 is the same stuff, so you can use the dilution and dev times.
 
Thank you all for your responses.

I will be developing my first roll over this long weekend and i will start by using D76 stock at Kodak's recommended times. Following this i will probably use Kodak's recommendations to develop a roll at the 1:1 dilution (IE 473ml of working solution at the data sheet times). If required i will then make the appropriate time adjustments to suit my needs (EG if more or less contrast is required).

However, from your comments, it appears that i can safely follow the recommended times and use just 300ml of working solution, per film, at any of the recommended dilutions (stock, 1:1, 1:3). Therefore the developer volumes, at the recommended dilutions, appear to have no material impact upon the development times and the resulting negatives.

Once i have developed a few rolls i will developing film using 1:1 dilution in 300ml of working solution and compare the results against the negatives developed in 473ml of solution. But, from reading your comments, i suspect the difference is likely to be negligible.

Thanks again, I'll let you know how i get on.

Jag
 
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