Help!! I need a Leica historian!

jaapv

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Since sending off my 135 apo I have been on the lookout for a 2.8/135, as that will work on the M8. So I found an orphaned one that had been sitting on marktplaats.nl, our local Bay subsiduary, that had been bid on a month ago without response from the seller. I put in a 25 Euro higher bid and got no response either, so I e-mailed. To cut a long story short, I found myself paying 275 Euro for a lens ut I knew absolutely nothing about regarding age, condition etc. It was a rather nice surprise, to say the least, to open the package and find an absolutely mint second generation lens, with a mint lenscap, original ring 16141, perfect Leica series7 UVa filter. Number 2223xxx, placing it firmly in the middle of the second series, in 1966, yellow feet-scale, etc. But it has "made in Canada" plastered all over it, in four different places, and Leitz Canada only started building this lens after Dr. Mandler redesigned it, in 1968, with far higher serialnumbers. This lens should have, according to all sources, been made in Wetzlar.....😕 😕 😕
 
Hi Jaap,

The list(s) used to identify lenses of are often wrong-which causes a lot of people to think that they have a very special lense(and sart seing $$$...). For example i've a Summilux 50mm dated to 1958-while the official production started a year later...

Gr.

Maurice
 
I know, and a production date is not absolute,I wouldn't even have bothered posting for a misdated lens, but this lens was never built in Canada at all, according to all sources....btw., it is just interest, you won't find this lens on Bay as "super-collectable" or some such nonsense... Oh-Maurice and welcome on the forum, it's a friendly place.🙂
 
Sartorius, Identifying Leica Lenses, has that serial number as a first version; 1963-1973; made in Canada; rarity grade common, which seems to agree with what you have. It should also have goggles.
 
That cannot be right, according to Puts, with acces to factory records, the first and second version up to 1968 were produced solely in Wetzlar, with the changeover between first and second in 1965, and a redesign by Mandler in 1968 for the third version which was produced in Canada, with a lensbarrel redesign in 1975, which mainly changed the filterring from 54 to 55 mm.The lens barrel was drastically modernized in 1993 with a "135" engraving and a continuosly milled focusring .Mine has all the identifying marks of the second version,including a yellow instead of purple feet-scale . My number, according to Puts is right in the middle of the second version. Stupid thing is, one can only confirm this by taking the lens apart and looking at the optical configuration.
 
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Are we talking about the same lens? A 135mm f/2.8 Elmarit. The first version was made until 1973. The example pictured in the book says Leitz Canada on the front lens element holder.
 
We are, goggled Elmarit M 2.8/135- and Puts distinguishes it the way I did in my post, complete with diagrams of the different optical configurations, with two versions made in Wetzlar and the third and next versions made in in Canada from 1968 onwards. What may be the grounds for confusion, is that the versions and numbering of the optically identical R version do not run parallel to the M line. Or Puts may have it wrong , your explanation is much simpler and fits the facts....But somehow I feel it may well be far more complicated as I remember my first one, which I owned way back in the seventies, having bought it second-hand, was indeed a German one.
 
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If your lens has a two-piece telescoping hood, it is a first version
 
There were two optical redesigns,so three in total, quite apart from the developments in the lens fittings.Double and single hood, different colour feet scale, different filter thread, different design focus ring, etc.
 
ferider said:
Here is from cameraquest:

135/2.8 Tele-Elmarit 1963, discontinued 1997, is a rather large lens with a built in 1.4x optical magnifier to increase the size of the camera's frameline and accuracy of the camera's focusing. This allows you to effectively use the larger 90 mm frameline on your M2/4/5/4-2/4-P/6. This increase in focusing accuracy also works with the earlier M3. Not a popular lens on the used market due to its large size. All versions are black, with detachable lens head for Viso work and built in hoods.

* Focusing ring with heavy ribs, magnifier attached by screws
* Focusing ring with heavy ribs, magnifier cast into lens body
* Focusing ring with fine ribs
* 1975 Two piece extendable hood became one piece, optical design now same as R lens
* "135" added on barrel

I have the second of the list.

Roland.

Strange- according to our good friend Erwin, the optical M and R designs merged from the beginning. And he contradicts himself in the list he has on his website.
 
With Leitz/Leica many things can be summed up with one of my favorite lines in its true sense, 'its a mystery...'

But there are some things that can be said about the 135mm Elmarit-M. First off, Dr Mandler designed both of the lens formulas for this lens ( and the Leicaflex ). The lens was a Midland Canada made lens from the beginning, and its fairly easy to look at the rear element and see if its the 1st or 2nd design ( and with a quick look at the mount to see if you even need to go that far ). You mention Puts saying 'factory records' show it was produced solely in Wetzlar, Puts only mentions where it was designed which is different ( and looks like he got it wrong there anyway unless Dr. Mandler had forgotten which lenses he designed ). Sometimes lens design was from Wetzlar and sometimes Canada, but actual production could be either location. Class in point, the 1st version 35 Summicron which Dr. Mandler designed and had most of its production in Canada, but also was made in Wetzlar. Also the 1st version 28 Elmarit which was designed in Wetzlar where a very few where produced at first but production was shifted to Canada for the rest of its run. But the 135 Elmarit for M, like the 1st 90 Summicron, and 35 Summilux (except the very late) and many others was a Canada design - Canada made lens.

135 Elmarit M version introduced in 1963, and the Leicaflex ( made in Wetzlar ) version a year later. The Leicaflex 1st version was slightly different, but basically the same lens. Leitz did slightly adjust lens glass design sometimes without announcing this, sometimes it was an actual total design upgrade in the lens glass ( like the unannounced 1st to 2nd version 50 Summilux of 1961 ), and sometimes it was just as new types of glass became available and/or old glass types became unavailable and a slight 'tweak'. Lens coatings changed also unannounced. We can only assume that these changes were for the better.

At some point in its early production the M version moved to the same glass/formula as the 1st version Leicaflex. I don't think you have to worry that one is better than the other, even as Puts says, they are basically the same. The M version mount stayed the same till the early 70s; scalloped focus ring, series 7 filter, screwed on finder magnifier, 2 stage lens hood extension, with the only 60s change being when Leitz started painting the feet focus scale yellow instead of red.

Leicaflex 135 version lens formula changed around 1970, with the M version following in about 1975. You can see the difference by looking at the rear element, in the older design the rear glass is concave, the later convex. So any of the scalloped focus ring lenses are the older glass. The 'transition period' and harder to tell which glass formula would be at about 1973, the hood became one piece and the focus ring was fine knurling along with the one piece finder ( no screws ) mount, and a bit later after the lens formula change to the 55mm filter change.

Fine lens, like the big 1st version 90 Summicron the weight helps to steady the lens in low light and the large barrel makes for a good hold.
 
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