Spyderman
Well-known
I'd like to buy a Bessa L or T. Either used or new (in case of the "T").
So far I've got an R2, with lenses 28, 35, 50, 85 (all LTM), but I'd like to trade the 28 for a 25 snapshot-skopar. But I hate changing lenses back and forth... So I decided to get a second body.
The L is probably cheaper, but there have been reported more problems with the shutter, and it's the first try of Cosina with LTM body.
The T is supposed to be a bit more refined (ratcheted film advance, trigger winder) and has rangefinder - so it's fully capable second body, whereas the "L" is only good for wides...
Which of these would you buy (or you have already bought) as a second body ?
BTW: I've got an offer on a "L" for € 130, and a new "T" would cost me $ 230+shipping+23% VAT and import duty = ca. $ 300. Which makes more sense at these prices ?
So far I've got an R2, with lenses 28, 35, 50, 85 (all LTM), but I'd like to trade the 28 for a 25 snapshot-skopar. But I hate changing lenses back and forth... So I decided to get a second body.
The L is probably cheaper, but there have been reported more problems with the shutter, and it's the first try of Cosina with LTM body.
The T is supposed to be a bit more refined (ratcheted film advance, trigger winder) and has rangefinder - so it's fully capable second body, whereas the "L" is only good for wides...
Which of these would you buy (or you have already bought) as a second body ?
BTW: I've got an offer on a "L" for € 130, and a new "T" would cost me $ 230+shipping+23% VAT and import duty = ca. $ 300. Which makes more sense at these prices ?
Andrew Sowerby
Well-known
Have you got external viewfinders for any of your lenses? If not, you'd have to factor the cost of those into the mix. Perhaps a Bessa R (or another R2) would make more sense? If you're set on the T or L, I'd go with the T because you can use all your lenses with it.
Colman
Established
Ask me next week! I bought an L+15mm fairly recently, and added the 25mm Snapshot a little while back. It's loads of fun to use and produces some nice images. It seems like a fine camera for the price, though there is the issue with the shutter jamming, which I've managed to do once.
I've got a T in transit from Stephen, with a 40mm and 75mm. Reloading the shipping page several times an hour to see if it's any closer.
My inclination is to expect that the Bessa-L will either end up on sale when and if I get a real rangefinder in the future - I'm sort of planning to get either one of the R*A's or a used M[46] later in the year - or be kept as a dedicated body for the 15mm. The T is a much more capable camera, takes M mount, and in theory it's better for focusing long lenses than the R2. I'd say it was worth the extra money.
I've got a T in transit from Stephen, with a 40mm and 75mm. Reloading the shipping page several times an hour to see if it's any closer.
My inclination is to expect that the Bessa-L will either end up on sale when and if I get a real rangefinder in the future - I'm sort of planning to get either one of the R*A's or a used M[46] later in the year - or be kept as a dedicated body for the 15mm. The T is a much more capable camera, takes M mount, and in theory it's better for focusing long lenses than the R2. I'd say it was worth the extra money.
Spyderman
Well-known
re. the finders: I've got plenty of them: helios multifinder (35, 85) VC 50mm finder, FSU turret and a "Wrey london" variframe finder for 35-135, so there would be no problem with finders. And the 25 comes with a finder.
In fact the only reason why I want to trade 28 for 25 is the finder - it's unbelievably hard to find a cheap 28 finder...
In fact the only reason why I want to trade 28 for 25 is the finder - it's unbelievably hard to find a cheap 28 finder...
payasam
a.k.a. Mukul Dube
Ondrej, I'd say the T makes sense, despite the higher cost, because of the R/F and the better build quality. By the way, doesn't the FSU turret finder have a setting for 28 mm?
drewbarb
picnic like it's 1999
I have one of each. I got the L very cheap, and it works fine for for the 15 to 25mm lenses I've used it with. The biggest issue I've had with it is that the flash sync in mine has never worked- but the shutter has always been fine. I like the light weight, and while I won't bet it will still work in 20 years, I'm happy to carry it around with a super-wide angle lens.
I bought the T, wanting to at least have the option to focus with a rangefinder for lenses and situations where that is helpful; and I liked the idea of the M-mount, so switching lenses with my other cameras would be seamless. The T is a bit better built than the L, though not drastically so. The winder coupling on the bottom could be a feature worth bearing in mind. The long-base RF is nice to have; but I just don't use it as much. I don't have finders for my longer lenses, but I do have cameras with built-in frame-lines. I just always go to those bodies when I use longer lenses. The only lens I really feel the T is right for is my CV 21mm, where I might want fine focus, but might just use scale or hyper focusing much of the time. My other super wides don't have coupled focus, so the T is wasted on them, and I just put the longer lenses on a body with a built in viewfinder.
So to my surprise, I find I actually prefer the L- at least I use it much more. It's so small and light, and yes, it feels cheap, but it works fine. You really can't go wrong either way- they are both perfectly capable, useable cameras.
I bought the T, wanting to at least have the option to focus with a rangefinder for lenses and situations where that is helpful; and I liked the idea of the M-mount, so switching lenses with my other cameras would be seamless. The T is a bit better built than the L, though not drastically so. The winder coupling on the bottom could be a feature worth bearing in mind. The long-base RF is nice to have; but I just don't use it as much. I don't have finders for my longer lenses, but I do have cameras with built-in frame-lines. I just always go to those bodies when I use longer lenses. The only lens I really feel the T is right for is my CV 21mm, where I might want fine focus, but might just use scale or hyper focusing much of the time. My other super wides don't have coupled focus, so the T is wasted on them, and I just put the longer lenses on a body with a built in viewfinder.
So to my surprise, I find I actually prefer the L- at least I use it much more. It's so small and light, and yes, it feels cheap, but it works fine. You really can't go wrong either way- they are both perfectly capable, useable cameras.
Spyderman
Well-known
payasam: yes, the FSu turret has 28 position, but it's so bulky...
I'm leaning more towards the "T". When I invest my money, I want the camera to be multi-purpose. Not like the "L", which is pretty much only for the wides. I can imagine using the "T" with a 50 and the wonderful VC 50 viewfinder.
The short EBL of R2 often puts me off from using it with the 85/2. It might find a new home on the "T"...
But please keep posting your opinions and experience...
I'm leaning more towards the "T". When I invest my money, I want the camera to be multi-purpose. Not like the "L", which is pretty much only for the wides. I can imagine using the "T" with a 50 and the wonderful VC 50 viewfinder.
The short EBL of R2 often puts me off from using it with the 85/2. It might find a new home on the "T"...
But please keep posting your opinions and experience...
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89rzweig
Member
Hi Ondrej,
I'd go for Bessa-T for the following reasons:
* it has built-in rangefinder, which means you can use the camera with any lens, not just wide angles. It is not exactly fast, when you have to guess the framing, focus with the rangefinder and finally frame the picture with external finder, but the possibility is there and I do use 85/2 lens with this camera. On the other hand if there is enough light, I usually zone focus even with 35mm lens, it's just faster and easier than to fiddle with the rangefinder.
* Bessa-T is an M-mount camera, which means you can use any Leica compatible lens with this camera. It seams now even Cosina-Voigtlander switches to M-mount lenses.
* Bessa-T has ratcheted film advance lever, which is a good thing. Nothing really crucial, but a nice thing to have.
* it looks a bit like an old Leica (II or III I think) and it creates a positive "retro" emotions among people being photographed.
The only thing, that I do not like on this camera is the shutter sound. It is reassuring, but very loud "industrial" sound. People definitely notice it, when they hear the "bang" and turn around as if they would be saying "What was that ?" and usually don't ever realise it was the camera's shutter.
Another annoyance with this camera for me was that it requires different double-shoe adapter from Voigtlander than my R-D1s, because the film rewind lever protrudes above the top plate even when folded and because of this I had to purchase another one :-(
The Russian "turret" finder mates very well with this camera, but has to be "adapted" a bit, otherwise it tries to create a hole in the front of your head, when you try to look through the rangefinder. It is not a big deal, just unscrew the four screws at the bottom of the finder, remove the accessory shoe mount and then move it backwards matching the two back holes on the finder body with the two front holes on the accessory shoe mount. Then secure it with just two screws. The back of the finder is now almost in-line with the camera back. Unless you loose the two remaining screws, the finder can be easily put into its original shape.
One last comment on shipping and import duties and VAT: I didn't have to pay any of these, when the goods were shipped through EMS. It is very quick, you will get a tracking number and here in CZ it looks like these EMS parcels receive some sort of special treatment being delivered by the district post office and not by the local one. This, of course, may be just here...
Wish you good luck in deciding and then purchasing a new camera.
Cheers,
I'd go for Bessa-T for the following reasons:
* it has built-in rangefinder, which means you can use the camera with any lens, not just wide angles. It is not exactly fast, when you have to guess the framing, focus with the rangefinder and finally frame the picture with external finder, but the possibility is there and I do use 85/2 lens with this camera. On the other hand if there is enough light, I usually zone focus even with 35mm lens, it's just faster and easier than to fiddle with the rangefinder.
* Bessa-T is an M-mount camera, which means you can use any Leica compatible lens with this camera. It seams now even Cosina-Voigtlander switches to M-mount lenses.
* Bessa-T has ratcheted film advance lever, which is a good thing. Nothing really crucial, but a nice thing to have.
* it looks a bit like an old Leica (II or III I think) and it creates a positive "retro" emotions among people being photographed.
The only thing, that I do not like on this camera is the shutter sound. It is reassuring, but very loud "industrial" sound. People definitely notice it, when they hear the "bang" and turn around as if they would be saying "What was that ?" and usually don't ever realise it was the camera's shutter.
Another annoyance with this camera for me was that it requires different double-shoe adapter from Voigtlander than my R-D1s, because the film rewind lever protrudes above the top plate even when folded and because of this I had to purchase another one :-(
The Russian "turret" finder mates very well with this camera, but has to be "adapted" a bit, otherwise it tries to create a hole in the front of your head, when you try to look through the rangefinder. It is not a big deal, just unscrew the four screws at the bottom of the finder, remove the accessory shoe mount and then move it backwards matching the two back holes on the finder body with the two front holes on the accessory shoe mount. Then secure it with just two screws. The back of the finder is now almost in-line with the camera back. Unless you loose the two remaining screws, the finder can be easily put into its original shape.
One last comment on shipping and import duties and VAT: I didn't have to pay any of these, when the goods were shipped through EMS. It is very quick, you will get a tracking number and here in CZ it looks like these EMS parcels receive some sort of special treatment being delivered by the district post office and not by the local one. This, of course, may be just here...
Wish you good luck in deciding and then purchasing a new camera.
Cheers,
Spyderman
Well-known
Thanks.
BTW: my experience with EMS is not like yours... When I bought my first Bessa R, it came via EMS and it got searched and I've been charged 19% VAT + 5% import duty.
So, it seems even EMS is not immune to the customs... Maybe some courier like FedEx, or UPS, but that would be very expensive with uncertain results...
BTW: my experience with EMS is not like yours... When I bought my first Bessa R, it came via EMS and it got searched and I've been charged 19% VAT + 5% import duty.
So, it seems even EMS is not immune to the customs... Maybe some courier like FedEx, or UPS, but that would be very expensive with uncertain results...
89rzweig
Member
Bessa-T with finders
Bessa-T with finders
I just found these two pictures of my Bessa-T. It should give you an idea how big the kit is with various external finders. The turret finder does look a bit funny on this camera, especially when used with Jupiter-11 (135/4). My wife -- quoting the famous British comedy ('Allo, 'Allo) -- told me that it looks like a Herr Flick's powerfull Gestapo camera...)) Nonetheless, one can create great pictures with that.
Bessa-T with finders
I just found these two pictures of my Bessa-T. It should give you an idea how big the kit is with various external finders. The turret finder does look a bit funny on this camera, especially when used with Jupiter-11 (135/4). My wife -- quoting the famous British comedy ('Allo, 'Allo) -- told me that it looks like a Herr Flick's powerfull Gestapo camera...
)) Nonetheless, one can create great pictures with that.Attachments
89rzweig
Member
Thanks.
BTW: my experience with EMS is not like yours... When I bought my first Bessa R, it came via EMS and it got searched and I've been charged 19% VAT + 5% import duty.
Hmm. It probably varies from country to country, but I *always* had to pay import duties and VAT, when I got a parcel shipped by FedEx or DHL. I suppose that with UPS I would end up in the same way.
pvdhaar
Peter
I use a T myself, and it's a great piece of kit. Extremely accurate RF.
I did a side by side with a recently overhauled Leica M4, and both agreed to within 1cm over the range of 1.5m - 5m. (Put object on ruler, focus, put lens on other camera, and move until coincidence)..
I was amazed that RF's could be that accurate. The T is certainly good enough for a 85/2 in that range..
There's only two things the T has not, that are on the L..
1. self timer. If you need it, it's only on the L
2. screw mount. Bayonet mounts are great, but you need an additional adapter for LTM lenses
Mind you, the user manual of the T still mentions the self timer.. but it probably got dropped because the M-Mount didn't leave enough room for it..
I did a side by side with a recently overhauled Leica M4, and both agreed to within 1cm over the range of 1.5m - 5m. (Put object on ruler, focus, put lens on other camera, and move until coincidence)..
I was amazed that RF's could be that accurate. The T is certainly good enough for a 85/2 in that range..
There's only two things the T has not, that are on the L..
1. self timer. If you need it, it's only on the L
2. screw mount. Bayonet mounts are great, but you need an additional adapter for LTM lenses
Mind you, the user manual of the T still mentions the self timer.. but it probably got dropped because the M-Mount didn't leave enough room for it..
Spyderman
Well-known
Thanks.
Because of the rangefinder, the T seems to be a more useful camera. I don't really need the S.T., and I've got some LTM-M adapters to use with my R2, so that's not a problem either.
Now I should just decide whether I really need a second body :bang:
Because of the rangefinder, the T seems to be a more useful camera. I don't really need the S.T., and I've got some LTM-M adapters to use with my R2, so that's not a problem either.
Now I should just decide whether I really need a second body :bang:
89rzweig
Member
Thanks.
BTW: my experience with EMS is not like yours... When I bought my first Bessa R, it came via EMS and it got searched and I've been charged 19% VAT + 5% import duty.
If you have problems with customs, when getting stuff from abroad, then it is worth to look on what's available on eBay in Europe, like this one:
http://cgi.ebay.de/Voigtlander-Bess...ryZ11717QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
It is for about €202 plus €25 for shipping. It means it is above your budget by some €75. It's up to you, if it is worth it for you or not. Of course, I do not have any relation to this e-shop. I dealt with them once, not exactly nice people to deal with, no PayPal, just bank money transfer, but item was better then described and delivered quickly once the payment was cleared.
satbunny
Established
I went with the T. I have a multi view viewfinder and a 25mm VF for the Snapshot. I have found the rangefinder in the T great and workflow is good. I mount my 35mm, 50mm and 90mm on it as suits. This is my second body after my Leica, and also one I use when I fear theft.
Mind you, it didn't stop my last Leica being stolen from my bag on the Leningrad Metro.
Mind you, it didn't stop my last Leica being stolen from my bag on the Leningrad Metro.
holgaguy
Established
T because you can use all your lenses
holgaguy
Established
get a Fed 5c no one would ever steal that
89rzweig
Member
That's true, but these are not very reliable cameras, plus no chance to use M-mount lenses. And the selenium meter on these was not considered very accurate even in 1980's, so now it has to get only worse. There are better FSU rangefinder cameras than FED-5.
jwhitley
Established
I'm extremely pleased over my recent opportunity to acquire the Bessa T. But it's still the honeymoon... who knows what'll happen next? ;–)
