camera.bear
Well-known
I'm not sure about the two when it comes to bokeh. I shoot SLR/dSLR when I'm looking for that. Here's a pic that I took that has a nice out of focus background. By the way, this was shot using Auto Exposure. http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3038/2507186357_34ddc5c756_o.jpg
I would think that the Hi-Matic 9 and the Canonets are going to be similar as they all use 5 blades in the aperture. I would check out the photo sharing sites, like Flickr.com, and see what other photographers are doing with both of these cameras.
Also check out Bill Mattock's review of the Hi-Matic 9:
http://www.growlery.com/minolta_hi-matic_9/
I am coming off very biased to the Hi-Matic 9, but I really like the Canonets as well. I just think that the Hi-Matic 9 should not be discounted because it does not have the cult status of the Canonets.
I would think that the Hi-Matic 9 and the Canonets are going to be similar as they all use 5 blades in the aperture. I would check out the photo sharing sites, like Flickr.com, and see what other photographers are doing with both of these cameras.
Also check out Bill Mattock's review of the Hi-Matic 9:
http://www.growlery.com/minolta_hi-matic_9/
I am coming off very biased to the Hi-Matic 9, but I really like the Canonets as well. I just think that the Hi-Matic 9 should not be discounted because it does not have the cult status of the Canonets.
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lorriman
Established
I'm entirely biased against distracting/unnatural backgrounds: I reckon natural oof backgrounds are 50% of what 's needed for admiring comments, all else being equal. And I want those admiring comments. So the Canonet, despite its alluring and elegant lines, is out. It is like a beatiful and well dressed lady with pinched lips. No thanks!
Meanwhile that Minolta is a bit buxom, but not so bad looking. Pity about the EV nonsense. What airhead at Minolta decided on requiring the user to be intelligent? Dammit!
Meanwhile that Minolta is a bit buxom, but not so bad looking. Pity about the EV nonsense. What airhead at Minolta decided on requiring the user to be intelligent? Dammit!
R
ruben
Guest
Apologizes for every folk feeling I have been unjust with the Minoltas.
Kindly understand the the EV scale in the viewfinder simply drives me crazy.
Kindly understand the the EV scale in the viewfinder simply drives me crazy.
lorriman
Established
Ruben, you couldn't tell me whether the EV scale is equivelent to the F-stops: has Minolta just substituted numbers? I've been assuming they did a bit more than that, but your message above hints otherwise.
I would research this but a camera I'm bidding on depends on this, and ends in 15 minutes, too soon for my non-calculator mind to work it all out from other people's ramblings.
I would research this but a camera I'm bidding on depends on this, and ends in 15 minutes, too soon for my non-calculator mind to work it all out from other people's ramblings.
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ruben
Guest
That's exactly the source of the disgrace. As already pointed by a friend here, each EV the needle indicates at the viewfinder, translates into all the possible combinations between f/stops and speeds, for that specific amount of light the needle is indicating.
Do you follow me to hospitalization ?
To be fair with Minolta, it is to be recalled that another great and expensive camera follows the same nosense: The Olympus SP.
The Minolta I owned for a short time, I lended to a "friend" who made me the favour of disappearing.
The Oly SP I used and use for many years, at fixed aperture/stop with flash at interiors, cursing each time why such great camera embeds the EV system.
Cheers,
Ruben.
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lorriman
Established
Your reply came seconds before the final bidding on a Minolta 11, with proper decent f-stops, that had already gone too high. So I was never going to join you in your very comfortable room, in anycase.
But I am feeling bitter loss, not even having had it, if that's any consolation to your miserable circumstances.
I would love to know what rationalisation drove Minolta to such heights of barmyness. Is it excessively sunny in Minolta land, something in the water?
But I am feeling bitter loss, not even having had it, if that's any consolation to your miserable circumstances.
I would love to know what rationalisation drove Minolta to such heights of barmyness. Is it excessively sunny in Minolta land, something in the water?
R
ruben
Guest
As stated Minolta wasn't the only one to follow this illnes. Even today, for example, if you buy a Digisix Gossen semi Digital meter - their last fashion trend, after you push the button "on" in order to meter, you get an EV in big LCD size. In order to find your exposure, like in the Minolta and the SP, you have to turn the EV wheel until you find that EV.
Only by this action you will be shown.....all the possible combination for you to choose.
By contrast once in a time there was a great camera design that used the EV way in a very clever way. This was the Yashica Lynx 100.
At the viewfinder you had a green big circle and the customary needly. First you selected your shutter speed outside the viewfinder. Then you will look through the viewfinder and superimpose the needle over the green circle by mooving the F/stop ring. Once this was done all the combinations were locked to the spped ring unless you mooved the aperture ring.
But you started, like in a Canonet with a known and clear speed.
Now, don't jump over the Lynx 1000, as I did, since most are distance ring hard to rotate.
Cheers,
Ruben
Only by this action you will be shown.....all the possible combination for you to choose.
By contrast once in a time there was a great camera design that used the EV way in a very clever way. This was the Yashica Lynx 100.
At the viewfinder you had a green big circle and the customary needly. First you selected your shutter speed outside the viewfinder. Then you will look through the viewfinder and superimpose the needle over the green circle by mooving the F/stop ring. Once this was done all the combinations were locked to the spped ring unless you mooved the aperture ring.
But you started, like in a Canonet with a known and clear speed.
Now, don't jump over the Lynx 1000, as I did, since most are distance ring hard to rotate.
Cheers,
Ruben
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camera.bear
Well-known
Hey Guys,
Thanks guys. All of this discussion on the Hi-Matics has gotten me intrigued. I checked out the specs on the 7, 7s and the 11 to see how Minolta "evolved" this camera body.
The 7s and the 9 are practically the same camera except for the lens. The 9 added 1/2 and 1 sec to the shutter and the Easy Flash system with the Guide Number settings. From the 9 to the 11, the view finder info did change to show both shutter speed and aperture, but several things were lost along the way. The slowest shutter speed was now only 1/8 sec and the ASA topped out at 500 instead of 800. These changes limit the working range of the 11 compared to the 7s and especially the 9. And even though you can see the aperture in the view finder of the 11, you have no direct control over what that aperture will be. Whether the camera is in full Auto Exposure or Shutter Priority, the aperture is CAMERA selected and there is no manual overide on the 11.
Since Minolta had the SR-T series of SLRs to address the needs of the enthusiast and professional market, the goal with the Hi-Matic was to automate picture taking in the 35mm format and appeal to the masses. From the 11 forward, the Hi-Matic series became more and more automatic with fewer and fewer setting choices having to be made by the photographer. By the Hi-Matic E, F and G, focusing was the only manual operation and Auto Focus was achieved with the Hi-Matic AF. The exection to this trend is the much sought after Hi-Matic 7sII which offers Shutter Priority and Non-metered manual, but no Guide Number system.
It seems that the 9 was the pinnacle of the Hi-Matic range of cameras from the enthusiast's point of view. I think the EV system was the best choice that Minolta had in order to provide Metered Manual with the technology available in 1966. From what I have seen on this forum and the internet, it seems that becuase of the resistance to EV, Minolta dropped the system, but in doing this they also dropped Metered manual in thier consumer market cameras. I guess you can't have it all, all of the time.
Thanks guys. All of this discussion on the Hi-Matics has gotten me intrigued. I checked out the specs on the 7, 7s and the 11 to see how Minolta "evolved" this camera body.
The 7s and the 9 are practically the same camera except for the lens. The 9 added 1/2 and 1 sec to the shutter and the Easy Flash system with the Guide Number settings. From the 9 to the 11, the view finder info did change to show both shutter speed and aperture, but several things were lost along the way. The slowest shutter speed was now only 1/8 sec and the ASA topped out at 500 instead of 800. These changes limit the working range of the 11 compared to the 7s and especially the 9. And even though you can see the aperture in the view finder of the 11, you have no direct control over what that aperture will be. Whether the camera is in full Auto Exposure or Shutter Priority, the aperture is CAMERA selected and there is no manual overide on the 11.
Since Minolta had the SR-T series of SLRs to address the needs of the enthusiast and professional market, the goal with the Hi-Matic was to automate picture taking in the 35mm format and appeal to the masses. From the 11 forward, the Hi-Matic series became more and more automatic with fewer and fewer setting choices having to be made by the photographer. By the Hi-Matic E, F and G, focusing was the only manual operation and Auto Focus was achieved with the Hi-Matic AF. The exection to this trend is the much sought after Hi-Matic 7sII which offers Shutter Priority and Non-metered manual, but no Guide Number system.
It seems that the 9 was the pinnacle of the Hi-Matic range of cameras from the enthusiast's point of view. I think the EV system was the best choice that Minolta had in order to provide Metered Manual with the technology available in 1966. From what I have seen on this forum and the internet, it seems that becuase of the resistance to EV, Minolta dropped the system, but in doing this they also dropped Metered manual in thier consumer market cameras. I guess you can't have it all, all of the time.
R
ruben
Guest
Hi Camera Bear,
You do have a lot of info about Minoltas and therefore, in order to better explain my opinion that the EV way is a non-sense when operating a camera, I will take the case of the Oly SP - a field in which the master conoussier about, our friend Trius, shares a mutual symphaty with me and I don't run any risk.
Let's see it from today's trend and techs. From time to time the camera user may need to view all the possible combinations of apertire and speed for a very specific shot. But imagine a shooter OBLIGED TO REVIEW ALL POSSIBLE COMBINATIONS FOR EVERY SHOT he performs. Wouldn't you agree this is cumbersome ?
This is the case with the Oly SP, like it or not, unless you are working on THE OLY SP PRE SELECTED PROGRAM, or you meter the light yourself, without the camera, and use the camera as a Soviet meterless rangefinder.
Of course every one is entitled to do what he pleases, but the problem with the Oly SP is that unless you meter the light yourself, you will be OBLIGED, first, to translate the viewfinder needle reading into the aperture ring, and SECONDLY select among the options, becomming more confusing as they increase. . AFTER you made up your mind, then you rotate the speed and/or aperture ring to your selected combination.
Ahh, but there is a RFF clever folk that beforehand has an aperture preference of, let's say f/5.6, or f/8. So he will not be loosing his time or getting confused in the middle by assesing all possible combinations, but AFTER TRANSLATING the viewfinder needle EV into the rings, he will straight go to set the corresponding speed.
Nice indeed, buy why our folk wasn't given at the viewfinder scale info the speeds, thus enabling him to manually preselect the aperture and then, after reading the corresponding speed he will set just the speed ?
As you see the EV way is an additional and interfering step. At least when this is the info you get in the viewfinder.
The same can be said about today's Gossen Digisix light meter, the last cry of Gossen compactness in the digital era. Fine. You push the button and what you get ? Guess what - our old, nice and cumbersome EV, which only after manually resettig the manual dials accordingly, you wil have the hyperconfusing spectrum of all combinations, in a supercompact mishmash package
About today's Gossen Digisix, Minolta of the past is not to be blamed, of course. On the contrary, by comparizon, Minolta's best efforts by 1966 look much practical and user friendly than Gossen's. But with the EV scale in the viefinder, it seems to me both Minolta and Olympus then were lagging behind Konicas Auto S, Yashica Lynxes and perhaps other cameras too.
Now, the need to see all alternative combinations once light has been metered and rings (either aperture OR speed) set, was always valid and answered by different means. For example the Soviet Iskras (and hence I infere the previous Issoletes) once you set either aperture or speed, by simple following which speed is over which f/stop at the lens barrel - you got your answer.
And the disgrace is that the more you love the EV equiped camera, the more you hate its EV way.
Cheers,
Ruben
You do have a lot of info about Minoltas and therefore, in order to better explain my opinion that the EV way is a non-sense when operating a camera, I will take the case of the Oly SP - a field in which the master conoussier about, our friend Trius, shares a mutual symphaty with me and I don't run any risk.
Let's see it from today's trend and techs. From time to time the camera user may need to view all the possible combinations of apertire and speed for a very specific shot. But imagine a shooter OBLIGED TO REVIEW ALL POSSIBLE COMBINATIONS FOR EVERY SHOT he performs. Wouldn't you agree this is cumbersome ?
This is the case with the Oly SP, like it or not, unless you are working on THE OLY SP PRE SELECTED PROGRAM, or you meter the light yourself, without the camera, and use the camera as a Soviet meterless rangefinder.
Of course every one is entitled to do what he pleases, but the problem with the Oly SP is that unless you meter the light yourself, you will be OBLIGED, first, to translate the viewfinder needle reading into the aperture ring, and SECONDLY select among the options, becomming more confusing as they increase. . AFTER you made up your mind, then you rotate the speed and/or aperture ring to your selected combination.
Ahh, but there is a RFF clever folk that beforehand has an aperture preference of, let's say f/5.6, or f/8. So he will not be loosing his time or getting confused in the middle by assesing all possible combinations, but AFTER TRANSLATING the viewfinder needle EV into the rings, he will straight go to set the corresponding speed.
Nice indeed, buy why our folk wasn't given at the viewfinder scale info the speeds, thus enabling him to manually preselect the aperture and then, after reading the corresponding speed he will set just the speed ?
As you see the EV way is an additional and interfering step. At least when this is the info you get in the viewfinder.
The same can be said about today's Gossen Digisix light meter, the last cry of Gossen compactness in the digital era. Fine. You push the button and what you get ? Guess what - our old, nice and cumbersome EV, which only after manually resettig the manual dials accordingly, you wil have the hyperconfusing spectrum of all combinations, in a supercompact mishmash package
About today's Gossen Digisix, Minolta of the past is not to be blamed, of course. On the contrary, by comparizon, Minolta's best efforts by 1966 look much practical and user friendly than Gossen's. But with the EV scale in the viefinder, it seems to me both Minolta and Olympus then were lagging behind Konicas Auto S, Yashica Lynxes and perhaps other cameras too.
Now, the need to see all alternative combinations once light has been metered and rings (either aperture OR speed) set, was always valid and answered by different means. For example the Soviet Iskras (and hence I infere the previous Issoletes) once you set either aperture or speed, by simple following which speed is over which f/stop at the lens barrel - you got your answer.
And the disgrace is that the more you love the EV equiped camera, the more you hate its EV way.
Cheers,
Ruben
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camera.bear
Well-known
Hi Ruben,
I understand what your saying about EV and how it can seem to be an extra step. I am not trying to convert anyone or make them use a system that they are uncomfortable using. In practice, I do not find it as cumbersome as you make it seem. I do not have to review EVERY shutter/aperture combination for the indicated EV value. I already have an idea of what my goals are for the image and where I want either the shutter speed or aperture, and I just need to adjust the other setting to match the indicated EV of the meter. Simple, one adjustment and I can shoot the exposure. Can I do that without taking the camera away from my eye. Not every time. But I know what I have the camera set to and the corresponding EV number. I am familiar enough with the controls of the Hi-Matic 9 to be able to adjust either setting a stop or two.
Being familiar with the camera you are using is a must with any camera. With the Shutter Priorty of the Canonet, you still need to know what shutter speed you are starting out with. If you don't know the shutter speed you are starting with and you adjust to get the aperture you want, how will you know if you are still in the hand-holdable shutter speeds or not? I guess you would have to take the camera away from your eye and check.
I don't know anyone who could go back to 1966 and re-engineer this camera or any other to suit there needs. I have the camera now and I like the results it provides, so I have learned to work within its limitations, which in my opion are not many. I think this is the case with any camera and one of the cornerstones of being a photographer. Using the tools that you have at hand to achieve as closely as possible the results that you want.
I understand what your saying about EV and how it can seem to be an extra step. I am not trying to convert anyone or make them use a system that they are uncomfortable using. In practice, I do not find it as cumbersome as you make it seem. I do not have to review EVERY shutter/aperture combination for the indicated EV value. I already have an idea of what my goals are for the image and where I want either the shutter speed or aperture, and I just need to adjust the other setting to match the indicated EV of the meter. Simple, one adjustment and I can shoot the exposure. Can I do that without taking the camera away from my eye. Not every time. But I know what I have the camera set to and the corresponding EV number. I am familiar enough with the controls of the Hi-Matic 9 to be able to adjust either setting a stop or two.
Being familiar with the camera you are using is a must with any camera. With the Shutter Priorty of the Canonet, you still need to know what shutter speed you are starting out with. If you don't know the shutter speed you are starting with and you adjust to get the aperture you want, how will you know if you are still in the hand-holdable shutter speeds or not? I guess you would have to take the camera away from your eye and check.
I don't know anyone who could go back to 1966 and re-engineer this camera or any other to suit there needs. I have the camera now and I like the results it provides, so I have learned to work within its limitations, which in my opion are not many. I think this is the case with any camera and one of the cornerstones of being a photographer. Using the tools that you have at hand to achieve as closely as possible the results that you want.
eli griggs
Well-known
In practice I have never found working with EV readings/settings more difficult than aperture/shutter speeds and would never reject a manual camera from consideration simply because it requires a bit of thinking on my part to use properly; most certainly not in favor of a inferior product.
That sort of reasoning reminds me of the overblown hype that crops up whenever the discussion turns to loading a screw-mount Leica vs. non-bottom loaders and a simple process is made out as a feat of extraordinary skill.
Of the two choices mentioned in the original post, the Minolta is clearly the better camera.
Cheers
That sort of reasoning reminds me of the overblown hype that crops up whenever the discussion turns to loading a screw-mount Leica vs. non-bottom loaders and a simple process is made out as a feat of extraordinary skill.
Of the two choices mentioned in the original post, the Minolta is clearly the better camera.
Cheers
R
ruben
Guest
airds
Well-known
There's a Canonet QL17 GIII newly in the ads from a member for USD60 ..... what about getting it and then showing us some pics?
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R
ruben
Guest
I would like to retreat from my one sided stand along all this thread against the Exposure Values scale in the viewfinder of the Minolta or the viewfinder of the Oly SP, or out of the viewfinder of any other camera.
My reason is as follows: If I am exposing searching for a special aperture or a special speed, AND I want a fast result, then the EV scale will be a sort of problem for me. HOWEVER, the EV scale will be of the greatest convenience, in case I want to select my exposure more carefully.
Furthermore, the convenience will be even greater for me if I am looking for exposing with compensations, either for the dark/shadows or white/highlights. At this situation it will be much easier for me, for example, to aply a minus 4 value move of the exposure value scale to adapt my exposure to a dark item, and then see my options, than start counting f/stops or speed numbers. Think for example about a change to be applied to a reading of EV 8 and one third.
I,e, the EV scale makes it easier being straightforwardly numerical: 1,2, 3, etc.
Another possible use of the EV scale in a fixed lens camera could be with a small light meter pending from my wrist, translating the camera reading to the meter and then making my calculations. Why not directly using the meter pending from the wrist ?
a) Because of the angle acceptance difference (most of the chances are that the meter of a fixed lens camera may fit better the focal length of the lens.
b) Because small non working selenium meters we have plenty of, and can be used in this case as simple scales for my calculations
So I think I owe this supplement to camera bear, and wish him all the best.
Besides I have the right to look for the fastest camera fitting me for street shooting, but it will be somewhat anachronistic to blame either the Minoltas Hi Matic or the Olys SP for having not been designed specially for street fast shooting.
There is another factor speaking on behalf of the EV scales, which slipped my mind just because I cannot take advantage of, due to my mode and customs. But the shooter who uses one or two Iso films, will find easy to familiarize himself with equivalences of the EV numbers. I, on the contrary use more Iso/cameras and therefore will not.
Cheers,
Ruben
My reason is as follows: If I am exposing searching for a special aperture or a special speed, AND I want a fast result, then the EV scale will be a sort of problem for me. HOWEVER, the EV scale will be of the greatest convenience, in case I want to select my exposure more carefully.
Furthermore, the convenience will be even greater for me if I am looking for exposing with compensations, either for the dark/shadows or white/highlights. At this situation it will be much easier for me, for example, to aply a minus 4 value move of the exposure value scale to adapt my exposure to a dark item, and then see my options, than start counting f/stops or speed numbers. Think for example about a change to be applied to a reading of EV 8 and one third.
I,e, the EV scale makes it easier being straightforwardly numerical: 1,2, 3, etc.
Another possible use of the EV scale in a fixed lens camera could be with a small light meter pending from my wrist, translating the camera reading to the meter and then making my calculations. Why not directly using the meter pending from the wrist ?
a) Because of the angle acceptance difference (most of the chances are that the meter of a fixed lens camera may fit better the focal length of the lens.
b) Because small non working selenium meters we have plenty of, and can be used in this case as simple scales for my calculations
So I think I owe this supplement to camera bear, and wish him all the best.
Besides I have the right to look for the fastest camera fitting me for street shooting, but it will be somewhat anachronistic to blame either the Minoltas Hi Matic or the Olys SP for having not been designed specially for street fast shooting.
There is another factor speaking on behalf of the EV scales, which slipped my mind just because I cannot take advantage of, due to my mode and customs. But the shooter who uses one or two Iso films, will find easy to familiarize himself with equivalences of the EV numbers. I, on the contrary use more Iso/cameras and therefore will not.
Cheers,
Ruben
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