Help me decide: Kiev 4a or Zorki 3

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davidtan

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After looking through the fedka website, I've come to these two choices: I want either the Kiev 4a or the Zorki 3. They're both very attractive cameras that come with a Jupiter-8 for their respective mounts. I'm having trouble deciding between the two, and I'd like for RFF to help me out by answering some questions:
  1. Is the longer base length on the Kiev very important in practice?
  2. I heard that the Zorki finder is larger and brighter than the Kiev's. How evident is the difference in the finders?
  3. I'm near-sighted and I wear glasses at all times. This hasn't been a problem for me at all when using SLRs, but I heard that there are often issues for those who wear glasses when using a rangefinder. What can I expect in this case from either camera?
  4. If I choose to get the Kiev, am I limited to only using the focus-wheel? Or can I opt to turn the lens for focusing instead?
One final question about purchasing from fedka:
I noticed that Yuri Boguslavsky lives in NYC. Some internet sleuthing suggests that he lives very close to me over at Brighton (makes sense :p). Does anyone know if he allows for pickups for cheaper prices?


Thanks!
 
Firstly - good decision to go for the 4A. Lightmeters from this era are a PITA and the 4a is a reasonably usable bit of kit.

Between Zorki and Kiev I prefer the Kiev because it is a Contax successor and I learned my photograph on a Contax in the 60's. However the Zorki, being LTM (Leica screw) has an enormous range of lenses available, Contax fit lenses are not so available.

If this is likely to be the start of a long term relationship go for the Leica equivalent Zorki. You can later try Voigtlander (CV), ZI and even the big L and still retain compatibility with lenses. I even occasionally use a 1933 Leica lens on my Leica M9.

Having said that, if I feel like an outing with an old rangefinder it is likely that I'd take my Kiev 4A .
 
The Zorki 3 is noted for its unreliable slow shutter speeds, the Zorki 3M is said to be much better in this regard.
 
I have an Zorki 4 & a Kiev 4. I like them both.
The Kiev 4 lenses are a lot cheaper. I bought the Kiev 4 with the jupiter 3 & 8 & 12 with shipping for 80 €. The jupiter 3 alone for the Zorki costs the double I paid the set of the Kiev4.
If the zorki 3 have the same viewfinder as the Zorki4, the Zorki 4 is a lot better.
You can turn in the lens to focus in the Kiev4
 
Each of your choices has pros and cons. To answer your specific questions though:

1. The RF baselength is important if you plan to use fast lenses, wide-open and close-up but the Zorki will actually cope reasonably well in practice.
2. The Zorki's finder is much brighter but the Kiev has a better contrast to the RF patch.
3. It depends just how near-sighted you are. The Zorki has an eyesight-correction dipotre adjustment, the Kiev does not. So the Zorki might score there.
4. No, you can use the lens to focus. The focus-wheel is primarily for finer adjustment and should only be used for the standard 50mm lens anyway. The infinity lock will keep locking on you though, it can be annoying but it can also be disabled without much trouble.

I also agree that a Zorki 3M might be better than a 3. Although plenty on here have claimed not to have problems with the slow speeds, they do have a reputation for trouble.

I have a Zorki 3M and a Kiev 4A, I agree they're both nice. Why not get both?
 
Thanks for all the responses.

At the moment I'm leaning heavily towards the Kiev 4a. Part of the reason is because I found out I can purchase it "a la carte" with a Helios 103 from fedka. The Helios looks like a very nice lens, and doesn't seem to be found in LTM.

In regards to my near-sightedness: I tried handling another photographer's Leica M7 the other day, and I could barely see the edges of the viewfinder. I wonder if I will experience the same problem with the Kiev.

I almost never use slow speeds, so if I choose the Zorki 3, I wouldn't be fazed if the slow speed mechanism broke (unless it breaks the fast speeds too). I'm considering the 3 over the 3m solely on the cheaper price.

Some more questions regarding these two cameras do pop up, now that I've been mulling over them:
  1. Which is the quieter shutter?
  2. Which is the lighter and smaller model?
  3. Fedka's Kiev 4a seems to be a model from 1977. The store's Zorki 3 is from 1954. Am I to expect a much better build and quality from the available Zorki 3?
Who knows? Maybe I will end up buying both. :eek:
 
I've only ever handled a Kiev briefly so I can't give you a specific answer about the viewfinder, but I can say this, every camera of that time period I have experienced has been less than ideal for me (I wear glasses). Even the vaunted Leica M3. My Zorki 4 was so bad I kept an accessory VF on it for 50mm. Viewfinders are a non-trivial engineering challenge, particularly combined VF/RF.

That said, I would go for the Kiev. The Helios-103 is a killer lens for the money. It's true you have a larger selection of lenses in LTM but the ones that do come in Contax/Kiev mount are usually a bigger bang for the buck.

By the way, the diopter adjustment only comes into play if you take your glasses/contacts off for shooting. I don't.
 
davidtan said:
Thanks for all the responses.

  1. Which is the quieter shutter?
  2. Which is the lighter and smaller model?
  3. Fedka's Kiev 4a seems to be a model from 1977. The store's Zorki 3 is from 1954. Am I to expect a much better build and quality from the available Zorki 3?
Who knows? Maybe I will end up buying both. :eek:
Click to expand...

Here's a size comparison of the two cameras with a J8 lens. They are both almost exactly the same size. The Zorki weighs 700 grams, the Kiev 705 grams, so nothing to choose there. The shutters sound different, with the Kiev lower-pitched, but I would say the overall volume is the same.

The Zorki has a dipoter adjustment on the viewfinder, and the Kiev does not. I'm about -3 diopter nearsighted myself, and the Zorki is much easier for me to use. The Zorki has a higher-magnification and slightly larger VF, although a shorter RF base.

The slow speed mechanism of the Zorki 3 is a copy of the one in the Leica 3, but not as well made. I am told it has a reputation for unreliability, but it is a trivial job to take the slow-speed escapement out and clean it, whereupon it's good for another ten years or so. The Contax shutter is extremely complicated, and is a challenge to service, even with the ultra-high precision Contax II and III's. Tolerances and finishes in the later Kiev shutter, which is an exact copy, are not in the same league as the Contax.

The Zorki 3M has a single-dial shutter speed arrangement, which is more convenient than the two-dial design of the Zorki 3, but it is a little bit more difficult to get at if you need to, but still fairly easy. I don't have an opinion on the relative reliability of the two designs.

Early Kievs were extremely well made, in some ways better that the prewar II's and III's of which they were copies, but after the mid-fifties the quality went rapidly downhill, the cameras getting pretty crude by the 70's. Personally I would avoid a late-model Kiev, however Fedka has a good reputation, and I am sure he will stand behind anything he sells. I would expect a better initial build quality from the Zorki, but then again, it has had an additional 20 years for things to wear out.

One other thing: There is a Zorki 3 currently on ebay for $149 including shipment, which is a very good price. If somebody does not buy it soon, I am likely to, even though I already have one!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/270955255326?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649


Cheers,
Dez
 
I had a Zorki 4 and a Kiev 4A at some point in my life. Sadly, the Zorki 4 only worked about half the time, some shutter issue. It was a pleasure to use and shoot, but the broken shutter only produced photos half the time. The finder was a treat, big, bright, contrasty. Not much to say about it, it's a simple camera.

I was happy with the kiev, seeing as if I got it for free in the RFF christmas giveaway. It was a little tougher to use than the Zorki, but I'm not familiar with Contax cameras. I eventually got around to learning how it works by reading a manual and playing with it for about half an hour. The way I used it was scale focusing by spinning the lens itself, then fine-tuning it in the viewfinder with the focus wheel... it worked well, got my shots quickly and effectively. My only complaint was that the take-up spool that came with it wouldn't stand straight, making loading a huge pain. The film wouldnt stay straight because it would pull the spool onto an angle, and because the spool was on an angle, the bottom plate wouldn't fit in. I don't know if this is an issue with ALL kievs, or just mine (mine was pretty beat). I ended up dropping the camera, bending the bottom plate, and ever since then, it wouldn't fit. I've read somewhere that the Kiev quality control dropped heavily during the production of the 4 or 4a, making them rather... unreliable for long term use. I wouldn't know how a fully CLA'd and well cared for Kiev 4A would last, but mine lasted about a month or two, I don't know how long the previous owner had it for.
 
All I'd add to the above is that the Kiev, while a great camera overall, is somewhat... eccentric to use. You either love it or you hate it. I have to be in a Kiev mindset to tolerate the infinity lock, Contax grip, double-bayonet lens mount (which makes changing lenses "in the field" a pain - you can't really swap rear caps from one sized lens to another), and that strange film winding/shutter speed combination knob. And the film loading... wow. You have to make sure the film isn't skipping off the sprockets before you put the back on. It's more fiddly than a bottom loader in that regard. But when I actually pick it up and take it out, I rapidly remember why I love it.

I REALLY suggest trying one out in person before shelling out any substantial amount of money, but if your heart's set on it and you can overlook its quirks, it's probably the better performer out of the two cameras you've chosen.

Out of interest, why are you set on a Zorki 3? While it's probably the most beautiful of all the non-Barnack Zorkis, it certainly wouldn't be my first choice - not if you don't need the slow speeds, anyway.
 
Dez said:
One other thing: There is a Zorki 3 currently on ebay for $149 including shipment, which is a very good price. If somebody does not buy it soon, I am likely to, even though I already have one!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/270955255326?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
Click to expand...

I have no confidence in using Ebay. Bid ahead!

If I can get used to shooting an Exakta with a preset lens, I'm guessing I can manage any quirks I find on a Kiev.

I admit it: I'm considering the Zorki 3 out of all the other Zorki's because of the looks. It looks so nice!
 
Hey David, I've got an offer for you. I agree with Tony above, you should definitely try one out before you buy one. How about I give you my Kiev 4a? It's of no use to me. the back plate is a little bent, it will close but I'm not sure if it holds the film straight or is light sealed, but you'll have a good idea of how it's like to focus and use one. Send me a PM and we can work out the details.
 
That particular ebay item is a buy-it-now, so if you want it, you can get it. I see that Fedka is listing both Zorki 3 and 3M on his site at good prices. Since you live in NYC, it would be great if you can actually go and see the cameras before you buy anything. Can you do that with Fedka, does he have an actual store, or just online?

I think Fedka does a lot of volume, so someone once said on the list that the pictures on his site were typical examples of the cameras he is selling, but not necessarily the exact one you will get; another good reason to go there if that is possible. In any case, I would love to have a chance to see all his cameras.

Your mention of nearsightedness is probably the main reason I would suggest the Zorki. If you use the cameras with your glasses on, you will not be able to see the entire frame, and if your lenses are plastic, they will get scratched.

Cheers,
Dez
 
No experience with any Kiev (yet). I've had a Zorki.3 for some time with limited use. I think the above notes have pretty much covered their pros & cons, but I might add I've never read here at RFF of anyone that had first-hand trouble with the notorious slow speeds, though I may have missed 'em. I've used the slow speeds a few times without incident. There are instructions on how to / how not to turn the slow dial to avoid jamming. Simple. Build quality of the 3 seems good, IMHO, but like most FSU's, they're old and not perfect. There are few examples here of photos taken with mine [and various lenses] some time ago. Scroll down.

You'll likely enjoy whichever you choose. Shooting with old cameras is just fun, period.

~ cheers

p.s. ~ my Zorki.3 also has a unresolved occasional light leak that makes me nuts. unfortunately, that's not unique to Zorki.3's and can show up in about any FSU, but thought I'd mention it. part of their character. :mad:
 
PatrickCheung said:
I had a Zorki 4 and a Kiev 4A at some point in my life. Sadly, the Zorki 4 only worked about half the time, some shutter issue. It was a pleasure to use and shoot, but the broken shutter only produced photos half the time. The finder was a treat, big, bright, contrasty. Not much to say about it, it's a simple camera.

I was happy with the kiev, seeing as if I got it for free in the RFF christmas giveaway. It was a little tougher to use than the Zorki, but I'm not familiar with Contax cameras. I eventually got around to learning how it works by reading a manual and playing with it for about half an hour. The way I used it was scale focusing by spinning the lens itself, then fine-tuning it in the viewfinder with the focus wheel... it worked well, got my shots quickly and effectively. My only complaint was that the take-up spool that came with it wouldn't stand straight, making loading a huge pain. The film wouldnt stay straight because it would pull the spool onto an angle, and because the spool was on an angle, the bottom plate wouldn't fit in. I don't know if this is an issue with ALL kievs, or just mine (mine was pretty beat). I ended up dropping the camera, bending the bottom plate, and ever since then, it wouldn't fit. I've read somewhere that the Kiev quality control dropped heavily during the production of the 4 or 4a, making them rather... unreliable for long term use. I wouldn't know how a fully CLA'd and well cared for Kiev 4A would last, but mine lasted about a month or two, I don't know how long the previous owner had it for.
Click to expand...

If the spool won't stay straight then someone has mislaid the original spool and probably replaced it with a spool from a 35mm cassette. These can be used unmodified, which at least is very convenient when the original is lost but it can be fiddly to get the back on when reloading.
 
I just want to mention something:

I don't wear glasses but if you do, be VERY CAREFUL WITH THE KIEV!

The Kiev has a serrated metal eyepiece that will scratch the hell out of your glasses.

You will want to tape over it or krazy-glue some kind of rubber protection on top of it.

I'm serious - it WILL destroy your glasses in an instant. I wear sunglasses all the time, I know! Hah.

As for the kiev itself.. if you have a nice one, you might just love it.

I love my Kiev. I was thinking of selling some camera gear recently to offset my Leica M3 purchase earlier this month. I thought of selling my mint condition 1959 Kiev 4. Then I slapped myself for being such an idiot.

There's no way I'll ever sell my Kiev unless it's to buy a Kiev II to replace it.

The Kiev is VERY quiet in my opinion. If you've ever heard a film Leica M work, it's about the same. The sound is a little different though. The slow speeds "wheeze". The high speeds thunk. In my experience people being photographed by the Kiev don't understand the shutter sound, don't realize they've been photographed.

In my opinion changing the shutter speeds is just fine. It's a little different from other cameras but not a big deal.

The viewfinder is VERY small but on a good one, not dark. No framelines nor parallax correction so you need to be mindful of that when shooting close up.

The long baselength DOES make a difference, in two ways. First of all, focusing a Kiev is slow in my opinion. The focus throw of 50mm lenses is huge and makes moving subjects kind of difficult. You will learn to prefocus when you see an interesting scene developing then quickly adjust before taking the shot. Despite that though, the huge baselength is very useful for getting perfect focus every time even on very long lenses. The Jupiter-9 or Jupiter-11 for example would be fantastic with the Kiev. You'll never miss focus with those lenses on a Kiev.

One thing rarely mentioned is the absolute rock-solid build of the Kiev viewfinder. This deserves some mention. Normal rangefinders can be sent way out of alignment with a hit to the left side of the camera. A Kiev or early Contax will not do this. The RF mechanism is almost like a solid piece of glass. It's very difficult to go out of alignment by accident.

If you're buying a Kiev, try to get one from before 1960. It's not a guarantee that it'll work perfectly, but your chances go way up. Also, try contacting the seller to verify its condition first. On ebay, if you ask the seller about the slow shutter speeds and he doesn't answer you, you know his camera's a dud. Good sellers have their equipment on hand and will check it for you and answer honestly.

Nevertheless, be prepared for the possibility of a CLA upon arrival of the camera. It may not be necessary - I have owned two Kievs and been blessed both times with Kievs that had been cared for and CLA'd at least twice since manufacture. If you choose a responsive buyer I'm sure you will get a nice camera.
 
PatrickCheung said:
Hey David, I've got an offer for you. I agree with Tony above, you should definitely try one out before you buy one. How about I give you my Kiev 4a? It's of no use to me. the back plate is a little bent, it will close but I'm not sure if it holds the film straight or is light sealed, but you'll have a good idea of how it's like to focus and use one. Send me a PM and we can work out the details.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the offer Patrick. I do know that my local Adorama and B&H have Kiev's in their used inventory (though their prices aren't great), so I could always go there to try them out. Actually, I should have done so sooner. Hopefully they have a whole assortment of FSU cameras for me to try before I make a decision.

It would seem that most FSU rangefinders have that glasses-destroying, serrated ring around the viewfinder. I'd best be careful.

The focus throw issue with the Kiev is troubling; I shoot mostly candids and street photography. Is focusing much faster with the Zorki 3 and its viewfinder?
 
davidtan said:
The focus throw issue with the Kiev is troubling; I shoot mostly candids and street photography. Is focusing much faster with the Zorki 3 and its viewfinder?
Click to expand...

Arguably yes, but it's less accurate.

In reality, I find that turning the lens to focus as opposed to using the serrated wheel really speeds up the Kiev's focusing to the point where the two are indistinguishable. I treat the wheel more as a "fine tuning" device for when I have a bit more time to focus and compose; it's a much slower, finer and more delicate focusing mechanism than turning the lens.

That said, comparing the Jupiter 12 in both mounts, the Kiev version requires roughly 120º more turn between infinity and 1m. I'd never noticed this before, so while it would affect you in theory, I really doubt it would in practice.

Another minor point that just occurred to me: The Kiev lenses all focus closer than their LTM counterparts. Most lenses focus to 90cm instead of 1m, but the Jupiter 11 goes to 1.5m instead of 2.5m, making it a much more useful lens.
 
Hi,

You can buy little packs of self adhesive felt in circles for sticking to the base of things to stop them scratching furniture.

Select one the right size and punch a hole in it (also the right size) and stick it over the 3's eyepiece thing that you turn to adjust the dioptre: end of problem.

Regards, David
 
It needs to be kept very thin though. It's pretty close to impossible to see the whole frame with glasses on with a Kiev, and any additional thickness makes it more challenging.

Cheers,
Dez
 
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