waynec
Established
Whats your carry now?
I always wanted an M and got a M3 a few years back. It's hard for me to carry it since rangefinders are not really my style. I much prefer the optical viewfinder for focusing and a dof button if I can get it. This especially when out landscaping or doing close in stuff like flowers. I'm also a little conscious of carrying a Leica in certain areas and leaving it in the truck when working, so the all the time stuff doesn't fly for me. Since I believe in horses for courses, I've got various cameras to complete the requirement, especially when flash is needed. What about a carry CL or CLE for a kick about and an M6 for the cleaner times. Just thinking..
I always wanted an M and got a M3 a few years back. It's hard for me to carry it since rangefinders are not really my style. I much prefer the optical viewfinder for focusing and a dof button if I can get it. This especially when out landscaping or doing close in stuff like flowers. I'm also a little conscious of carrying a Leica in certain areas and leaving it in the truck when working, so the all the time stuff doesn't fly for me. Since I believe in horses for courses, I've got various cameras to complete the requirement, especially when flash is needed. What about a carry CL or CLE for a kick about and an M6 for the cleaner times. Just thinking..
Godfrey
somewhat colored
I think you misinterpret what I've said, Roger.
What I am shooting with matters to me but hardly to anyone else. What I made a bunch of photos with in 1971 is still there in my head, but the content of the photos is far far far more important than the camera I made them with.
Being attached to things for the sake of the thing itself is not one of my memes. I don't care all that much about things. That my father might have used the same Leica from when he bought it in 1953 to when he died in 1971 is an interesting note to be aware of, but doesn't matter much to me or anyone else. That he made many wonderful photos of our family through those years, with it and with the several Polaroid cameras that he loved to play with, is much more important to me and to everyone who knows our family.
I buy a camera as a tool, to use. If I like it a lot, I hold onto it and use for a long time. If something else comes along that I like better, for whatever reason, I have no qualms about tossing the old in favor of the new.
Godfrey
rkm
Well-known
What the OP is contemplating seems like a life long commitment rather than investment. How do you choose a partner for the rest of your life? How do you know what troubles may come in the course of 60 plus years? And how do you know your partner will remain committed to you?
Of course a camera has no will of it's own, but a marriage is an interesting metaphor nonetheless. I got married when I was about Carsten's age (I was 20). And I'm still married 20 years later, due in part to commitment over compatibility. My wife and I are very different people compared to 20 years ago, but we have travelled all these roads together and will continue to, by the grace of God.
Of course a camera has no will of it's own, but a marriage is an interesting metaphor nonetheless. I got married when I was about Carsten's age (I was 20). And I'm still married 20 years later, due in part to commitment over compatibility. My wife and I are very different people compared to 20 years ago, but we have travelled all these roads together and will continue to, by the grace of God.
rui
M2&IIIf user
Carsten, you have a great project. Whatever you choose, you can't go wrong!
That said, I leave you with two options:
- M6 + (new or old) Collapsible Elmar 50/2.8
- M2 + Rigid Summicron 50 + Summaron 35
I believe both combos still fit your $2000 budget. I did my vintage purchases in 2004-2008 and the prices keep going up...
I saw your pics, great shots! You've got an eye that will last 60 years or more!
That said, I leave you with two options:
- M6 + (new or old) Collapsible Elmar 50/2.8
- M2 + Rigid Summicron 50 + Summaron 35
I believe both combos still fit your $2000 budget. I did my vintage purchases in 2004-2008 and the prices keep going up...
I saw your pics, great shots! You've got an eye that will last 60 years or more!
Archiver
Veteran
Carsten, I have a question that only just occurred to me. Have you ever shot with a Leica? Have you had enough experience handling and using one to know that this is the kind of camera you want to use for the rest of your life?
This might be a silly question, and most people do like the way film Leicas handle, but I'm just wondering if you decided on this project knowing what you were getting yourself into. For me, the M9 is an amazing camera but even this gets a bit heavy, and I like to carry a Ricoh GXR with M-mount or Olympus OM-D because they are lighter and smaller. The M7 weighs just a touch more than the M9 but is slimmer, so it feels more comfortable in my hand but is still a touch heavy if carrying it all day.
This might be a silly question, and most people do like the way film Leicas handle, but I'm just wondering if you decided on this project knowing what you were getting yourself into. For me, the M9 is an amazing camera but even this gets a bit heavy, and I like to carry a Ricoh GXR with M-mount or Olympus OM-D because they are lighter and smaller. The M7 weighs just a touch more than the M9 but is slimmer, so it feels more comfortable in my hand but is still a touch heavy if carrying it all day.
Chris Lange
nighthawk
I am not going to admit to being the wet blanket on this motel room cot, but...
seriously?
This thread is a joke. Rather, Carston's idea sounds perfectly reasonable, but you guys are going ape**** over it like you've never heard of a young adult wanting a Leica before. KM-25 was about to give the kid an M6TTL...honestly?
I'm 22 myself, I taught myself everything I know about photography starting when I was 12, and am now in my final year of university, earning my BFA.
I lived in Finland for a year as an exchange student after graduating a year early from high school. It was there I bought a Nikon F3 with an MD4, and Nikkormat FT2 when my DSLR broke down. I fought to get a master key to a school I didn't attend just to have a key to a darkroom.
I bought my first Hasselblad when I was a freshman in university, a beater 500EL/M off KEH, and managed to hunt down through a friend of a friend of a family friend another 500C body and an 80/2.8C. I have 3 Hasselblads now, and I cherish them. I stumbled upon a Rolleiflex Automat X when I was a freshman as well. A friend of mine offered it to me, having received it from his recently deceased grandfather. I wasn't looking for a Rollei, he just approached me one day. I had it overhauled two weeks after I got it.
My glassblowing professor of all people, gave me a Nikon F3/T with a 35/1.4, 105/1.8, having seen me carry my F3 and F4 around every single day of my sophomore year. Again, I never asked for help or advice, he just called me into his office and told me he wanted me to have the camera and lenses.
I worked my ass off and bided my time for three years to buy my Leica, an M2, with a CV 35/1.4, and a Summicron 50/2 DR which I love to the end of the earth, but never in a million years would I consider it as such a...precious little object.
Leicas are not precious, they are not nostalgic, and they are not memories by definition. A Leica can be these things to a select person, or small group of people, but they are cameras, just like my F3, just like my Hasselblad 500C, just like my Rolleiflex.
Carston, take it from a fellow young dude, find yourself an F3 with a 50/1.4 or 1.2, pocket the extra change, and buy a ****load of film, paper, and chemistry. The advance and fit of an F3 are on par with an M6 (yes I've used both), and they brass up beautifully (if that matters to you). If electronic shutters really put you off that much, get an F2.
I love my Leica, sure. Would I say I couldn't make my photographs without it?
If I answered with a "yes" then I would be sincerely confused about where the **** the 1000+ rolls of film I have filed and archived came from.
Archiving your life is not the responsibility of a metal box made in Germany, Japan, or any other place. It's yours, and you'll do it via whatever means you've got. I know because that's what I did, and still do.
seriously?
This thread is a joke. Rather, Carston's idea sounds perfectly reasonable, but you guys are going ape**** over it like you've never heard of a young adult wanting a Leica before. KM-25 was about to give the kid an M6TTL...honestly?
I'm 22 myself, I taught myself everything I know about photography starting when I was 12, and am now in my final year of university, earning my BFA.
I lived in Finland for a year as an exchange student after graduating a year early from high school. It was there I bought a Nikon F3 with an MD4, and Nikkormat FT2 when my DSLR broke down. I fought to get a master key to a school I didn't attend just to have a key to a darkroom.
I bought my first Hasselblad when I was a freshman in university, a beater 500EL/M off KEH, and managed to hunt down through a friend of a friend of a family friend another 500C body and an 80/2.8C. I have 3 Hasselblads now, and I cherish them. I stumbled upon a Rolleiflex Automat X when I was a freshman as well. A friend of mine offered it to me, having received it from his recently deceased grandfather. I wasn't looking for a Rollei, he just approached me one day. I had it overhauled two weeks after I got it.
My glassblowing professor of all people, gave me a Nikon F3/T with a 35/1.4, 105/1.8, having seen me carry my F3 and F4 around every single day of my sophomore year. Again, I never asked for help or advice, he just called me into his office and told me he wanted me to have the camera and lenses.
I worked my ass off and bided my time for three years to buy my Leica, an M2, with a CV 35/1.4, and a Summicron 50/2 DR which I love to the end of the earth, but never in a million years would I consider it as such a...precious little object.
Leicas are not precious, they are not nostalgic, and they are not memories by definition. A Leica can be these things to a select person, or small group of people, but they are cameras, just like my F3, just like my Hasselblad 500C, just like my Rolleiflex.
Carston, take it from a fellow young dude, find yourself an F3 with a 50/1.4 or 1.2, pocket the extra change, and buy a ****load of film, paper, and chemistry. The advance and fit of an F3 are on par with an M6 (yes I've used both), and they brass up beautifully (if that matters to you). If electronic shutters really put you off that much, get an F2.
I love my Leica, sure. Would I say I couldn't make my photographs without it?
If I answered with a "yes" then I would be sincerely confused about where the **** the 1000+ rolls of film I have filed and archived came from.
Archiving your life is not the responsibility of a metal box made in Germany, Japan, or any other place. It's yours, and you'll do it via whatever means you've got. I know because that's what I did, and still do.
zauhar
Veteran
For what it's worth, I believe KM offered to sell the young man an M6.
And yeah, you are pretty much a f-cking wet blanket. If that's your goal, you succeeded!
Randy
And yeah, you are pretty much a f-cking wet blanket. If that's your goal, you succeeded!
Randy
Chris Lange
nighthawk
I'm not telling the kid not to get a Leica. He can, and should, get whatever he wants if he has the means to do so. I did the very same thing this year.
Carsten, seriously, go out and get an M3,4,4P, or 6 by whatever means necessary, I would've done the same thing. It simply sounds like you have high expectations of the camera to be a material object to you, and that you are also concerned with the "look" of a having a Leica in your hands.
If you've not actually used a Leica M before, drop by a camera shop that sells them used, if you can, and see what they are like. You might like a Nikon more, or you might prefer a Rolleiflex. Who knows, that's for you to decide.
People have a tendency to wrap Leica cameras in adorable little blankets, tucked away in the back of their minds like some sort of untouchable golden standard. If that were the case, Don McCullin wouldn't have shot his entire career on Nikon Fs.
I highly suggest you look at the work of Isa Brito, a photographer who came to NYC from South America with 60 dollars and a Kodak Instamatic in her pocket back in the 1980s. She did a lot of personal documentary work with all sorts of gear (no idea what because she never mentioned it in her book, or at her opening I attended this summer at MILK in NYC). Her photographs of her friend's illicit gay marriage on the underpinnings of the Williamsburg bridge, lit with torches and attended by a procession of hooded ghostly beings are the result of the experience, not the brand name on the box she had in her hands.
You can throw me in the dryer now.
Carsten, seriously, go out and get an M3,4,4P, or 6 by whatever means necessary, I would've done the same thing. It simply sounds like you have high expectations of the camera to be a material object to you, and that you are also concerned with the "look" of a having a Leica in your hands.
If you've not actually used a Leica M before, drop by a camera shop that sells them used, if you can, and see what they are like. You might like a Nikon more, or you might prefer a Rolleiflex. Who knows, that's for you to decide.
People have a tendency to wrap Leica cameras in adorable little blankets, tucked away in the back of their minds like some sort of untouchable golden standard. If that were the case, Don McCullin wouldn't have shot his entire career on Nikon Fs.
I highly suggest you look at the work of Isa Brito, a photographer who came to NYC from South America with 60 dollars and a Kodak Instamatic in her pocket back in the 1980s. She did a lot of personal documentary work with all sorts of gear (no idea what because she never mentioned it in her book, or at her opening I attended this summer at MILK in NYC). Her photographs of her friend's illicit gay marriage on the underpinnings of the Williamsburg bridge, lit with torches and attended by a procession of hooded ghostly beings are the result of the experience, not the brand name on the box she had in her hands.
You can throw me in the dryer now.
djonesii
Well-known
Life is too short to own one camera! Try as many as you can. If you get bored move on. The film idea is great but if you limit yourself to a Leica you miss a speed graphic or a custom built Polaroid 4x5. A Bronica 645 is a great crf as is a Fuji 690. There is way more to Film and rangefinders than leica.
Best of luck
Dave
Best of luck
Dave
denizg7
Well-known
am i the only one suggesting a brand new mp?
with care and CLA every 15 years or so an m3 lasted 50 years for some.. Best to luck and hope that a brand new mp will continue that..
by the way is the mp and the m7 have steer gears or brass gears? thanks
with care and CLA every 15 years or so an m3 lasted 50 years for some.. Best to luck and hope that a brand new mp will continue that..
by the way is the mp and the m7 have steer gears or brass gears? thanks
denizg7
Well-known
these words are wise.. 7 years ago I wanted a dslr system so badly.. A lot of my friends even in high school kept getting the new Canon Mark every 2 years and I just saved up money and last year I just bought my very own first camera.. Right now all my friends that had cameras back then spent atleast 10,000 on photography equipment and just now I am seeing them wanting to transition to the M cameras..
Now that I am thinking clearly.. I would suggest him a Leica CL with 40mm summicron..Use it for 2 years as you own it , see if it grows on you then make this "lifetime decision" CL is the cheapest way into getting into the M system and is great to begin with.. Don't beleive the Leica Myth people spread, they are not weather proof and they do need every 4-7 year services that cost 3 times more than a decent film dslr on regular basis. Truth is japs can build just as good stuff now days and the voigtlander lenses will be here 50 years from now and not the elmars or summarons....
Harry Lime
Practitioner
If it has to have a light meter, be able to use a 35 (unlike the M3) and have a brass top with black finish your options are limited.
If you want a meter rule out anything earlier than the M6 (unless you want an M5 and I don't think they ever came in black paint)
There were a few brass / black paint M6 editions. They are all collectible and priced accordingly. There was the LHSA, Millennium and a few others. All other M6/M6ttl are zinc, except for a few units from the first run that use the M4-P top and those are rare and collectible.
That leaves you with the current MP. Black paint, brass, meter and the .72 shoots everything from 28-135mm. But they aren't cheap. A used LN will run you about $4000.
Just to cut to the chase.
- All M bodies, except maybe the M4-2 are tough as nails and will last for decades, if serviced regularly.
- Leica specifically re-engineered the guts of MP for longevity and smoothness. My guess is they knew this was going to be their last shot at fiddling with a film body...
My advice?
- Get the .72 magnification
- Try to find a user MP at a price you can afford. That way you'll get your black paint and will be happy for the next few decades.
- If you can't find an MP go for the M6/M6ttl. There are plenty of clean bodies out there. Most of them have seen little or no use, especially by Leica standards. You can get one these for a reasonable price. The M6 series is very, very tough and can stand up to tons of use. I've had my M6ttl since 1998 and it's not going anywhere soon.
- If you get an M6, put some money aside to get he 'flare fix' for the finder. The MP has this built in. Cost is $150-300.
- Get a 35mm lens for starters. I love the 50, but the 35 is more flexible. The 35 does pretty much everything and frames more accurately than a 50 on the M6 and newer bodies that use the .7m frameline mask.
- Speed is king. Get the fastest glass you can afford.
- Don't worry if the glass is not from Leica. Take great pictures and no one will give a damn about how sharp they are. Remember. CONTENT TRUMPS ALL.
- Tri-X is your friend (and so it Barry Thornton's 2-bath developer)
- Get a Sekonic 308 meter. As you learn about exposure, you'll learn that in many cases it is a far more flexible tool, than the built in meter.
- If you head down this road, this will probably not be the only Leica you own.
They have a tendency to accumulate...
Good luck
If you want a meter rule out anything earlier than the M6 (unless you want an M5 and I don't think they ever came in black paint)
There were a few brass / black paint M6 editions. They are all collectible and priced accordingly. There was the LHSA, Millennium and a few others. All other M6/M6ttl are zinc, except for a few units from the first run that use the M4-P top and those are rare and collectible.
That leaves you with the current MP. Black paint, brass, meter and the .72 shoots everything from 28-135mm. But they aren't cheap. A used LN will run you about $4000.
Just to cut to the chase.
- All M bodies, except maybe the M4-2 are tough as nails and will last for decades, if serviced regularly.
- Leica specifically re-engineered the guts of MP for longevity and smoothness. My guess is they knew this was going to be their last shot at fiddling with a film body...
My advice?
- Get the .72 magnification
- Try to find a user MP at a price you can afford. That way you'll get your black paint and will be happy for the next few decades.
- If you can't find an MP go for the M6/M6ttl. There are plenty of clean bodies out there. Most of them have seen little or no use, especially by Leica standards. You can get one these for a reasonable price. The M6 series is very, very tough and can stand up to tons of use. I've had my M6ttl since 1998 and it's not going anywhere soon.
- If you get an M6, put some money aside to get he 'flare fix' for the finder. The MP has this built in. Cost is $150-300.
- Get a 35mm lens for starters. I love the 50, but the 35 is more flexible. The 35 does pretty much everything and frames more accurately than a 50 on the M6 and newer bodies that use the .7m frameline mask.
- Speed is king. Get the fastest glass you can afford.
- Don't worry if the glass is not from Leica. Take great pictures and no one will give a damn about how sharp they are. Remember. CONTENT TRUMPS ALL.
- Tri-X is your friend (and so it Barry Thornton's 2-bath developer)
- Get a Sekonic 308 meter. As you learn about exposure, you'll learn that in many cases it is a far more flexible tool, than the built in meter.
- If you head down this road, this will probably not be the only Leica you own.
They have a tendency to accumulate...
Good luck
maddoc
... likes film again.
I would skip the "lifelong investment" idea entirely, buy an M4-P with 40Cron or 40 M-Rokkor, BW film (lots), start using the Leica and adapt to the "sunny 16 rule". Camera and lens should be available for less than US$1300 and if something breaks or gets lost your loss will be smaller.
Camera and lens should be available for less than US$1300 and if something breaks or gets lost your loss will be smaller.