Help me pick a new camera MP,M3,M4

[funkaoshi]

If you can afford an MP, I can't imagine why you're even bothering with this question. I have an M2 which I love. And no doubt people really love their M3s. Still, these are 50-60 year old cameras. Why wouldn't you opt for their modern day successor?

 

[drewbarb]

Absolutely. Which is why I queried the emphasis on price. If you'd rather have an M3, great. But I'd rather have an MP, for the reasons I gave.

If someone is considering a range of Ms, including an MP, presumably he can afford an MP if he considers the extra features worth the money. I do. You (and Drew) don't -- or maybe you just prefer the feel of the M3. I can certainly relate to that! The thing is, neither of us is right, except for ourselves.

Cheers,

R.

Well, I chose the M3 not because I didn't think the "extra features" weren't worth the extra money, but because after using other cameras, I found the M3 to have exactly the feature set I want; if I had to, I'd pay more for them. This goes back to Roger's (quite valid) point about price and value. My ideal camera would be newer than the M3 (the point about older cameras being potentially less reliable going forward than newer ones is sound, of course), but otherwise, experience has taught me that the M3 gives me exactly what I want (a big, flare-free finder with high magnification and robust design and build) and not what I don't want (a built-in meter, which I find distracting and of little value without AE; the angled rewind cranks, which broke on both of my cameras that had them). The feel of the older hand built Leicas is nice, but for me it is secondary to the function and feature set of the camera.

However, I absolutely agree with your larger point that everyone has to decide for him or herself which camera is best for them. This is where these threads always seem to end up: you can read all about our experiences, and get a sense of what each of us prefers. Some folks will always assume that what works best for them must also be best for others; of course this isn't true, and these posts should be treated with skepticism.

Like many folks, I went through a process of buying, using, and selling several cameras over a period of years before I figured out what was most important and works best for me; I suspect you may have to do the same. My wish for you is that you get through this with as little time and money wasted as possible, and that you quickly find what works best for you. So read what we have to say. Try a few cameras and see how they feel. Borrow, rent, and if you have to, buy and sell cameras to use a few different ones, and see what YOU prefer. Have fun with it.

 

[Tuolumne]

These are very different cameras, feel different in hand, and shoot different, and of course excel with different lenses. I have used them all and I can tell you that I would never be able to figure out which one I like best a priori or just by asking advice. My favorite is actually an M4-P, but part of that may be due to the fact that it was a collector version (50 year anniversary model) that probably saw little use and is the smoothest operating M I own, inlcuding my MP.

I'd say you might start by sampling them all. Used camera prices are probably at their bottom now, so I'd buy a smooth functioning M3 and start there. If you love it, stick with it. If not, sell it (almost certainly for what you paid) and move on to the M4. Repeat as above. What's the rush anyway? Part of the joy of using these cameras is savoring the experience, so start slow. None of these cameras is a bad choice. It's hard to go to heaven your first time around.

/T

 

[ferider]

An MP can not compete against a late fully working M3 for 50mm and longer. For me at least. New vs. old doesn't matter since, if broken, they can be repaired by the same people.

Pro MP: meter, better film loading, 75/35mm framelines, CNC'ed, motor/rapidwinder
Pro M3: more solid rewind, self timer, DOF marks in finder for shift correction, longer EBL, larger magnification, much better 50mm framelines, easy DIY for RF misalignment. Much better 90/135 framelines than any M, of course.

The fact that the M3 is cheaper is just an added bonus. I assume you can afford the MP; still you might prefer to spend your money wisely, or spend the difference on another lens.

It's a very personal decision. Best is to try before you buy, if at all possible.

Roland.

 

[Benjamin Marks]

These are very different cameras, feel different in hand, and shoot different, and of course excel with different lenses. I have used them all and I can tell you that I would never be able to figure out which one I like best a priori or just by asking advice. /T

Very good point. Although I do think that these discussions can dislodge useful nuggets of information for someone making a decision. I don't think I have ever asked the "A or B?" question in a public forum for myself. [Time for a google search, I guess . . .] I just don't make decisions based on comparisons of others' opinions. But I have seen images made with certain equipment or read photograhers' explanations of how they work and had that information strike a chord.

For myself, if money was no object and I could only choose one film camera, I'd get the MP. I'd like the idea of putting the miles on myself. But money is an object and I wouldn't sell the tools that I work well with M3s, M2, M5, M6 just to trade up. For me the other thing that would matter would be the ability to use one of Tom's Rapidwinders on the camera, which I found transformative when I discovered them. They just allowed me to work in a very different, very positive way. That would narrow things to M4, M6, M7, MP. I like a light meter (M6, M7, MP). I dislike, but have ignored the RF patch flare issue. And I don't particularly care for AE. Done. Presumably this would be a different list for everyone who did the assessment. You could just as easily start with the lens you use most often. If it is a 28 or a 24, your choices narrow somewhat.

E.g.

Ben

 

[Benjamin]

Yes, if you can afford an MP it's highly unlikely that you will regret the decision.

The M3 does have the best framelines for 50mm, though an .85x MP or M6 comes pretty close. The M3 is .91x, and the other standard M's are .72x, which are optimised, essentially, for the 35mm frame.

So if you can afford an MP, it's perhaps not worth looking at the M2 (though I love mine dearly) or M4 and trying out an M3 to see if it works for you.

The meter may also be a big deal to you, though hand held meters are inexpensive, at least when compared to the amount paid for a camera with one built in and on the whole easier to use.

The other thing that hasn't been mentioned is that the M3 has a completely different RF/VF to the cameras post. and is complicated, and thus expensive to repair.

The M3's RF is also only coupled down to 1m, as opposed to the M2's onward which are coupled to .7m, unless modified.

I hope that you're happy with whatever you decide upon anyway.


EDIT: Sorry, I just noticed that you weren't looking at the M2 anyway.

 

[venchka]

Correct answer

Correct answer

Next question?

BTW, with careful shopping you could buy the M3 AND the M4 for less than the cost of the MP. Keep the one you like. Sell the other.

Or go with my answer and have enough money leftover for a ton of film, chemicals and paper.

It's your money.

YMMV

 

[jack palmer]

For 50mm? Hands down, the MP with .85 view finder. The one I own and my personal favorite.The M3 is nice but this is even better.

 

[Jim Evidon]

M4-P, no question about it. That is what I bought to go with my M8. It has all 6 rangefinder frames and is solidly built. it was the transition model between the M4 and the M6 (M$ with M6 viewfinder). I purchased a 70 Jahre model (1913-1983), but any one of them will do. I purchased mine from KEH and never looked back. They are very very conservative on their ratings and nice to deal with. Mine was rated E, but IMO it is much closer to LN. I still haven't found any blemishes in it except for a tiny bit of paint flake on the pressure plate hinge. The RF was a little off, but DAG took care of that for a pittance.

 

[maddoc]

Either M4-P (because it is the last M Leica with the larger 50mm frame lines) if you want a reliable camera without meter, or a M7 with AE and electronically controlled shutter (and shutter times in half stops which is quite useful for color-slide film).

The M2/M3/M4/M5 are nicely made but decades older with more wear of the mechanics and many ruined by "camera-technicians", the only advantage of the actual MP is the slightly improved VF over the M6 and M6TTL. The M7 above ~ SN 2885xxx has the same flare-reduced VF as the MP and is also available with 0.85x VF magnification, BTW.

If you shoot mainly 50mm and occasionally 35mm or 28mm you can always improve focusing of a 0.72x VF with a 1.25 magnifier from Leica, this way you have more flexibility than with a 0.85x VF.

I have used all of these Leicas cameras, owned some of them repeated times but when it comes down to the practical value (taking photos), the M4-P and M7 win hands-down.

 

[thomasw_]

For 50mm? Hands down, the MP with .85 view finder. .... .The M3 is nice but this is even better.

Oh do say it again, brother! The MP 0,85x just rocks...we need to hear more about it. For a 35-50-75-90 shooter looking through its VF is like tasting an 18 year Talisker single malt.

For 50mm? Hands down, the MP with .85 view finder. .... The M3 is nice but this is even better.

Thanks again, Jack. And to the OP, I recommend the MP highly. I have tried all of the Ms you are interested in trying and the MP just has it all, especially sex-appeal. Also, it is nicer than a M3/4 in challengingly lit social situations, for sticking a meter in someone's line of vision before you shoot a critical moment can undo the moment. If the price is not a killer, get the MP as it is more versatile than an older M.

🙂

 

[Beemermark]

I'm agreement with newer isn't better though the M7 is my favorite camera. I've owned the M1, M2, M3, M4, M5 and now two M7s. The M4 IMHO (and many others) was the finest M ever built. The M2 is a cheaper M4, with the less desirable film loading and missing other minor odds and ends. The M5 is a boat anchor and while some people like it most don't (there was a reason it failed in the marketplace). The M3 is a beautiful camera, went thru a number of iterations and I think I've owned 6 - and always end up selling them. While the 50 is my favorite lens you always end up missing the wider framelines. Plus unless your using the Notilux the extra RF base length is a marketing gimmick only. If your buying a used camera go for the M4. If you want a meter than go with the M7. The MP is a beautiful camera but it is no better than the M7and the rewind crank is a PIA (why do you think the only other camera that had it was the M3, nobody liked it in the '50's and Leica came up with the 45 degree rewind).

Presently I own two M7's and one M4 (I recently broke down and sold one M4, I've owned both for decades).