Help needed in choosing a 'real' RF kit.

[iMacfan]

Hello everybody, I wonder if I could bend your ears for a minute concerning a difficult (yet potentially enviable) situation that I am in.

After a couple of years dabbling with RFs, I now have the opportunity to spend a substantial (to me), but not stupid amount of money on some 'real' RF gear.

Up till now I have acquired quite a few cheaper RF items, which I'll list:

Canon Canonet GIII-17QL bought for £35, works well but really needs a CLA as VF RF patch is dim and the foam seals are pretty gummy.

2 Zorki 4Ks, and Jupiter 8,9,11 and 12. One body works well, and I did enjoy such immense value, but the lack of VF frames, fuzzy RF patch, need for external finder and meter have hindered its use. The lenses may come in handy, though!

A rollei 35 -black, with Tessar, Singapore. Yet another bargain at £30(including free dent!), superb lens and fun to use with its quirky desin. However, with a slow lens and no focussing aid, this really is a sunny day camera.

Ricoh GR1v - The only camera that I have pumped any serious money into, now a few years old. Anyhow, I don't really need a 28mm lens that much, as this is so compact and high quality.


So, my dilemma: What do I buy for the best quality (both optical and build). To give you an idea, in an ideal world I'd get a Leica MP and a 50 Summilux ASPH.

My thinking at the moment is to get a Bessa R3a, a fast-ish 50mm lens and one of those Voigtlander superwides (21 or 15mm). Any recommendations? For the 50mm, I'm likely to get the Nokton, but the Leica 50/2 (aka almost the cheapest leica glass available) is tempting, as is the as yet unknown quantity of the Zeiss 50/2ZM, which promises to be excellent and cheaper than the Leica equivalent. I'm looking for good bokeh, and even more importantly that 'pop' effect, which I gather the Leica 50/2 is good for.

Thank you in advance for any suggestions,

David

 

[back alley]

if i were starting fresh and wanting to buy new?
hhhmmm...

i would get the bessa r3a with the 1:1 finder and the 40/1.4 lens.
i had a 40 before with my cle and it was a perfect compromise between 35 and 50, and the 1.4 is nice also.
however i'm not a speed freak when it comes to lenses and i'm quite happy with 2.5 or 1.8

if i were looking for used i would go for an older canon, maybe a p or 7s or a vi lever wind and a 35/2 lens.

that's my 2 cents worth!

joe

 

[Oldprof]

iMacfan, I have trouble taking your request for help seriously. All of the rangefinder cameras you say you have are "real." But if they don't satisfy you, you should try to handle some of the other, more expensive, equipment you seem to be longing for. See what fits your eyes and hands, and what makes you happy. The recommendations of other people are not worth what you choose based on your own intelligence and experience. But I doubt the pictures you will get with new equipment will be any better than what you get with the equipment you already have.

 

[sfaust]

Joe, I've been contemplating a Canon P or 7s myself. I've been doing my research on both of those, as well as a M6ttl and Nikon S2. Decisions, decisions...

 

[back alley]

stephen,

i really like the canon p! it looks beautiful. i know that most people prefer the look of the leica m2 or m3 but for me it's the p.
but then i really liked my 70's datsun 510 also.
if i had to choose between the 7 and vi , i'd go for the latter. it has the same lines as the p.
the 7 seems very capable and people who own then love them but the vi and p are just too beautiful not to own.
couple it with a nice canon chrome lens and you're in photo heaven.
they are an addictive combo. i really like my little bessa r but i have to talk myself into using it because i prefer the p. and the p was supposed to be my back up camera!

joe

 

[Sonnar Brian]

The price of Leica M2 and M3 cameras are down to Earth as well. An M2 or M3 will run about the same price as the Canon 7s. Figure to add in the cost of a CLA if one has not been performed lately. My M2 in EX+ condition with the CLA ran about $600. You may consider one. Tough choices. I could not decide either. But for the price of the MP and 50 Summilux Aspheric, you can get good user SP, M3, and Canon 7s all with F1.4 or F1.5 lenses! or maybe one, and save the rest of the money...

 

[rover]

David, I think you are on the right track. I recently spent time shooting my Compact RFs side by side with my Bessa R and decided, although they were real RFs, the Bessa was a much better camera to use. I went out and got an R2, then decided to sell 4 of my cameras, including the R, with the intention of buying an R3a. The Bessa viewfinder is bigger, brighter and easier to use, and R3a will be built at least as well as the cameras you have, and be new. All in all, I think it is a bargin.

I also saved my pennies (a lot of them) and recently bought a 50/2 Summicron. I love the look of images taken with this lens, and I wanted it as my main lens. I have to admit though that the Nokton was my second choice and I did come close to buying it instead. Take a look at images taken with the Nokton, I am very impressed with it, nice bokeh, very sharp, and it does demonstrate some pop. If your 50 is going to be your workhorse I think it is well worth your while to make that your investment lens. Get the one you think is best for you.

I also have the CV 21/4 and do recommend it if you are looking for a super wide. It too is sharp, very easy to use, small as can be, and covers my full vision with glasses quite fully. I have experienced some vignetting in shots I have taken wide open in bad light, but stop down a step or two and you are fine.

Good luck in your search, let us know what you decide on.

 

[peter_n]

David,
I would 2nd Joe: a Bessa R3a and the new 40/1.4 Nokton. I would get the CV 21 over the 15 which is not rangefinder coupled (the 21 is). Also look for a Kobalux 21/2.8, bigger than the CV 21, but a stop faster and no vignetting. Roughly the same price but discontinued so you can only buy used.

Stephen,
Strongly consider the M6ttl. I have one (my one and only RF body) and I just love it. Very practical, excellent meter, won't need a CLA for 20 years. Look for good prices on the Leica forum on photo.net.

 

[Huck Finn]

Listen to the old professor. 😉

 

[iMacfan]

Thanks for all the very many replies.

Just to clarify - I was trying to say by using the word 'real' that I do like the equipment that I have at the moment, which I think in many ways is excellent, but I do not have anything combining top quality build and the versatility of a system. Also Apeture priority really appeals, as AE is useful, but most cameras that I have with the function are Shutter priority, which to me is far less intuitive.

Also, I think that I am going to buy new - definitely the body, anyhow. Part of the money is a gift, and the powers that be see used as someone else's problem and less reliable. I don't agree completely, but agree enough to not complain.

Does anyone have experience comparing the current 50 'cron with other cheaper alternatives (e.g. the Nokton)?

Thanks once again,

David

 

[peter_n]

David I can't compare the current 50mm with a Nokton but I can compare it with the current Elmar-M, which is an f2.8 lens. I've had two current Summicrons, both were tremendous lenses but painfully sharp. So sharp that they were unkind to people, but great for architecture, I guess.

Last year I got the current Elmar-M and I really love that lens. It's a gem and very unappreciated by most people who can't see past the Summicron. It is sharp with a warmer color rendition than the Summicron and nice OOF areas. It's small, light and uses a proper screw-in lens hood. If you're worried about f2.8, just use faster film! Mine cost $355 and was three months old when I bought it from a photo.net member.

50mm Elmar-M at f4

 

[Huck Finn]

David, the Bessa R3A is getting a lot of publicity because of the 1.0x magnification and the ultra-fast 40. I would get that camera if I wanted to use a 40mm lens or wanted to add a fast 90. However, if you are more likely to add a 35 (the natural companion to a 50) down the road than a fast 90, I'd go for the R2A. It is also worth noting that you get more compact with each reduction in lens speed - & compact lenses is one of the things to really like about rangefinders.

Erwin Puts, noted Leicaphile & lens expert, reviewed the 50 Nokton & gave it a spectacular review - a rare thing for him to do for anything other than a Leica. He said that the Summicron is still Leica's best standard lens, but he puts the Nokton in the same class as the Summilux - maybe a little better - in optical quality, the Summilux better in build quality. So, Nokton if you want the speed, Summicron if you want razor sharp, & as Peter says, Elmar-M if you want to be kind to people. I have listed Erwin's web address below:

www.imx.nl

If I were looking for an aperture priority camera, I would certainly have a Konica Hexar RF high on my list. You can still find it new if you look around for about $1500 for camera, 50/2 lens, flash, & case. You may be able to negotiate that down a little at this point. I have seen it recently at Photostop in New Jersey (www.photostop.net) and Camera Wholesalers in Stamford, CT, which also has body only for about $950. The price of the kit is less than a Bessa + new Summicron & not much more than a Bessa + used recent Summicron from a dealer. You can save some money by buying a Summicron on ebay or by buying an older Summicron. The Hexar RF has outstanding build quality, 28- 90mm framelines, long baseline, & M mount. By all reports, its lenses are superb. The only caveat is complaints by a few owners of incompatibility with Leica lenses, but this seemed to be restricted to early production samples, so I'd avoid serial numbers under 1000.

Good luck!

 

[iMacfan]

If anything, that info makes me want the Summicron more - I feel that I have no talent and little desire to do any serious portraits, especially with a 50mm lens. Anyhow, if I did, I would then use my 85/2 Jupiter which sounds like it might be a better option anyhow for that use.

On the topic of the 'cron, is there any real difference in durability between the aluminium black version and the normal (NOT 50 yrs) silver version - I'd get the black because I prefer the colour, and it's expensive enough! Also, the vignetting curves used in the Leica info about the lens really confuse me - it looks like it vignettes over 2-stops worth at full apeture - is this really the case?

Once again, thank you - this thread is really helping me.

David

 

[peter_n]

David there are those that claim the silver chrome (heavier - more brass) are more durable. Those who really know - the lens repairers like John Van Stelten at Focal Point say there is no difference. Get the black, the lens is much lighter in weight.

Don't know about vignetting - I never had that experience with my Summicrons.

 

[Doug]

Sounds like a new Bessa R2a and a 50 Summicron will meet your desires and budget. Most of the Leica mystique can be shown through the lens, and there's nothing quite like having "the real thing", with no apologies or excuses. 🙂

 

[iMacfan]

Searching the net, I've found some opinions that the summicron is not as well built as the elmar - is this really a problem? One of the things I was hoping for from Leica was bombproof mechanics.

David

 

[denishr]

Don't worry about the mechanics of Leitz glass, unless you'll use it for banging nails, or as a weapon - in which case I'd recommend a Koni Omega 🙂

 

[Huck Finn]

The best built Summicron was the first rigid version - the one from the '60s. In fact, many consider it overbuilt if that's possible. They're available on e-bay all the time for a reasonable price. Some like its optics better as well.