Help with diagnosing shutter problem with Kiev III

[Loman]

Hi Everybody I have a 1951 preproduction Kiev III that I bought from Cupog on ebay:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kiev-3-III-1951-pre-production-rangefinder-camera-from-Contax-parts-CLA-RARITY-/110981792576?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&nma=true&si=cxQ32dk9NKNlx7cXr180YRKkWts%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc


Unfortunately although it's a beautiful camera and the shutter is the most quiet I've ever heard in a kiev (I've had three kiev 2a's from 1957 and their shutters were much more noisy) it's not exactly working as described. The problem is that if you leave the camera idle for more than 10 minutes or so and then use it again there is a delay of about 1/2 a second the first time you trip the shutter mechanism. After the first shot the camera works as normal. This delay is slightly better if you leave the camera uncocked. Although if you do there is a weird grinding noise the first time you cock the shutter after it's been sitting idle. Again after the first shot the camera works as normal. The delay gets catastrophically worse if you leave the camera cocked for a day, then the delay is more like 1 second.
Does anybody know what might cause this problem???
I can see that there is some brassing on the wheel to cock the shutter so the camera must have seen plenty of use in it's life.
Can this problem be caused by a weak spring? Or does the shutter needs to have more tension?

Gejza (cupog) writes in his add that the camera received a complete CLA, and I have no qualms believing him.
I could just send it back to him to have him try and sort it out. But I recently sent a black canonet ql17 GIII for a CLA and he screwed it up quite badly. Also I don't want to send the camera back for a refund as the camera is quite rare and I really want to keep it.
I could send the camera to Oleg Khalyavin but last time I sent a Kiev 2a to him for a CLA it came back with a leaky shutter curtain.
Any advise is much appreciated.
Kind Regards
Mads Hartmann

 

[hidejoshi]

Do it self. With help by Kiev survival site.Kiev Survival Site
You donť need bungee for adrenaline.

 

[Loman]

Yes all right... but I would love to know if anybody knew what is causing the problem?
And I would like to avoid attempting any repairs myself unless it was really really simple.
Kind Regards
Mads Hartmann

 

[wolves3012]

That's a very strange problem since it takes so long for it to arise. I can't think of any mechanism in a mechanical camera that could be the direct cause. The fact that it works normally after the first shot suggests it's not a weak spring or lack of curtain tension and it doesn't sound like a simple fix.

I'm not familiar enough with the guts of the Kiev to make any real suggestions but they are not the easiest to work on anyway. You have a few choices: live with the fault, send it back for refund (it clearly doesn't work as it should) or send it off for repair if you don't want to attempt it yourself - and pay out for the repair cost. Not the best of dilemmas!

 

[Loman]

Exactly. The camera is quite rare (to say the least) and it's a beauty. I really don't want to send it back. I'm thinking about getting it repaired by someone else. But I want to send it to someone who really knows how to work on these.
By the way this is "Cupogs" answer to the problem:

"Warm Kiev well - at 50 deg, put it at room heater. When camera will be warm, shot it a dozen times. I believe you will find that it works properly. Simple when you warm it and used, the microscopic dirt will move out and it will work. Shipping is hard test for such old camera, some dirt always is released"

I'm unsure as to wheather that will do it or not, but I'll have to give it a try.

Kind Regards
Mads

 

[Sid836]

Since it hasn't a cloth curtain I would recommend first dripping with a bit of Naptha to the side rails of the curtains, let it dry and then spray some (not much) silicon lubricant oil in them. Mine had the same problem, and now it runs flawlessly.
Apparently there is dust and lubricant that make some sort of sticky for the curtain to travel freely.

 

[Loman]

That sounds plausible... I'll give it a go.

 

[hidejoshi]

If you wanted fog on lens use silicon....
So I think Gejza quatch about CLA .
You have to clean. Dont worry. Made it with tooth brush and isopropyl, or cleaning petrol. Strictly folow instructions for demontage complete shutter mechanism. I bath complete shutter in isopropyl and few times shot and clean timing mechanism with tooth brush. Then few drops of PTFE oil or or oil for Clock mechanism. May you demontage and montage few times for perfect functions, but it is soul training.

 

[Sid836]

For a year now my lens has no haze. Why would silicon lubricant far away from the lens cause any trouble to it?

 

[hidejoshi]

You right, but why risk if is known onether way?

 

[Sid836]

Because two brief sprays of lubricant take less than 5 seconds and the results are immediate. If it fails CLA it anyway. Just a brief spray of lubricant won't make much difference in CLA.

 

[hidejoshi]

I think silicon spray vs. optic. 🙂 If shuter get 1000 or 1200 speed, I afraid about aerosol making. But may I am decadent. Let s surprise us.

 

[Sid836]

Do you mean that silicon spray could corrode the optics? Ooops! I was not aware of this. Thought that silicon lubricants where somewhat neutral.

 

[hidejoshi]

But silicon from oil sublimate and stick on lens surface.

 

[Sid836]

On that rangefinder, remove the lens, spray the curtain's rails, make a few clicks and that's it. You can also remove the film cover from the back to prevent from messing it up.
As far as I know that oil does not evaporate so when you put the lens back you will not get any on it.

 

[wolves3012]

Do you mean that silicon spray could corrode the optics? Ooops! I was not aware of this. Thought that silicon lubricants where somewhat neutral.

Silicones are fairly inert and probably won't corrode optics. However, they tend to "creep" unless applied with care and spraying them around inside a camera isn't a good idea. If you do manage to get any in the wrong place, such as on optics, they a nuisance (if not impossible) to remove completely.

 

[Sid836]

Yes, this is why one will spray with the lens removed. The areas to apply the brief spraying are through the rails of the curtains left and right in the shutter assembly. Besides, in Kiev cameras, CLA involves lubrication of the shutter (of course after completely dismantling it).

 

[hidejoshi]

But there is problem with sublimating silicon from oil. All time, not stricly by aplications.

 

[farlymac]

Sometimes, using the wrong lubricant is worse than none at all. It sounds to me like your seller used an improper lube, and it is inhibiting the free movement of things until you break it loose with the first activation. Couple that with the noise you are getting (which I think the heavy lubricant is supposed to be masking, like sawdust in a transmission), and the fact he screwed up your Canon, there is something else wrong that only an overhaul will fix. I never would have bought another thing from him, no matter how rare. Send it off to a competent repairer, like Fedka. http://www.fedka.com/Frames/Main_Frame.htm

PF

 

[Spyderman]

Do you really think a camera after a proper CLA should behave like this ? And as farlymac wrote - would you trust a seller who messed up a camera before that he would be capable of solving this issue with the Kiev ?