Here we have a REAL WW2 Leica

[Socke]

note the missing swastikas!

Leica IIIc Luftwaffeneigentum

 

[darkkavenger]

Somehow I'm not sure about it, it does seems real, but we see so much imitations... at least according from the front of the camera it doesn't looks like a zorki or fed .. nice to see about the swastikas also... they weren't going to put those everywhere... imagine swastikas on coffee cups or spoons & forks ... [ok no need to try showing up a pic of a WW2 coffee cup fellow members! 😀]

Anyway I'm not too much experienced to talk about this.. 🙂

 

[doubs43]

While I've not seen one "in the flesh", my reference book "Leica, the First 60 Years" would seem to verify that this camera is correct and original. It's 1941 manufacture - not 1940 as stated - and the serial number seems to fall generally in with military issue cameras. I, of course, cannot say for certain that it's authentic but it would seem to be.

Although the "Reichsadler" with swastika is known to have been used on some cameras, it wasn't very common. I've seen it on a war-time Exakta that is claimed to be original but I have no way to verify it's authenticity. In fact, when I raised questions about it when it was being sold on ebay, a well-known Exakta expert got hot under the collar and stated flatly that HE was qualified to pass judgment and he was certain it was original! This in spite of having earlier stated that only three or four were known world-wide and he hadn't actually examined the subject camera except for pictures posted on ebay. Rather than get into a win-less flame war, I dropped the subject. I still wonder how anyone can claim to be 100% certain if so few examples exist and a hands-on examination hasn't been made. Anyway, it wasn't my $1,600 so if the buyer is happy, so am I. 😎

Walker

note the missing swastikas!

Leica IIIc Luftwaffeneigentum

 

[iggers]

What if its part fake: original, but enhanced with an engraving that makes it appear to have been a war correspondent's?

As far as I know, Germans can't legally sell items that are festooned with swastikas. A clever seller could attempt to enhance the market value of a wartime Leica from 1941, by adding the words "Luftwaffen Eigentum." Did the Luftwaffe issue cameras to correspondents? Did they routinely engrave those words? We know that FSU sellers do.

 

[OldNick]

Did the IIIc have the raised area where the Advance/Rewind lever is located? I have never seen this before. I just looked at my IIIa and IIIf cameras, and that raised area does not exist.

 

[doubs43]

The German Military had soldiers assigned to cover the war photographically and the Luftwaffe purchased Leicas for that purpose. A periodic magazine devoted to military coverage was called "SIGNAL". The markings are correct, including the "Fl." number on top of the cover but, of course, that can be faked too.

It's always good to be cautious, even skeptical. I'd certainly want inspection priviledges and an escrow of the money to be released only after I've had a chance to examine the subject camera. If that's not agreeable then they can keep their goods.

Walker

What if its part fake: original, but enhanced with an engraving that makes it appear to have been a war correspondent's?

As far as I know, Germans can't legally sell items that are festooned with swastikas. A clever seller could attempt to enhance the market value of a wartime Leica from 1941, by adding the words "Luftwaffen Eigentum." Did the Luftwaffe issue cameras to correspondents? Did they routinely engrave those words? We know that FSU sellers do.

 

[doubs43]

Did the IIIc have the raised area where the Advance/Rewind lever is located? I have never seen this before. I just looked at my IIIa and IIIf cameras, and that raised area does not exist.

The subject IIIc does have the raised table for the rewind release lever.

Walker

 

[Roger Hicks]

They're not that unusual. I have owned one (grey paint, grey ER case; lens, camera and case all labelled LUFTWAFFEN EIGENTUM -- and at what I paid, with the history, it wasn't a fake) and handled maybe half a dozen.

But I've NEVER handled a genuine camera mit Reichsadler or indeed swastika.

Cheers,

Rofer

 

[Nikon Bob]

The post war IIIc camera is different enough that it might have been called a different model but it was not. One of the differences pre and post war is the raised area that the AR lever sits on. There are also other slight differences but I have had a brain fade on those.

Bob

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Just to roger what the others have stated, it look like the real thing. The more rare version is the "K" model, denoted by the mark on the shutter curtains but it used ball-bearings to operate in colder environments. Those were made for the Luftwaffe, I believe. I also read somewhere that all of the post-war cameras, or at least the IIIf, used the ball bearing movement like the "K".
The pre-war IIIc's had the raised advance/rewind lever. The serian Number is also correct for that period.The red curtains look correct for wartime.

 

[jlw]

As far as I know, Germans can't legally sell items that are festooned with swastikas. A clever seller could attempt to enhance the market value of a wartime Leica from 1941, by adding the words "Luftwaffen Eigentum." Did the Luftwaffe issue cameras to correspondents? Did they routinely engrave those words? We know that FSU sellers do.

Yes, they did. Authenticated examples exist. Note that, just as with British, American, and almost every other army's cameras, the genuine examples are very low-key in their engravings -- no elaborate symbols or overdone text. To an army, a camera was just another piece of property that needed to be kept track of, so they didn't get fancy with it: "Air Force Property" or an equivalent mark is generally about all there is. They wouldn't have gone to the bother and expense of doing more.

Cameras with elaborate symbology or multiple engravings are much more likely to be fake, witness all the amusing FSU cameras that seem to have EVERY conceivable collectible engraving thrown on (my favorite was the one discussed here recently that had both Nazi and Swedish engravings!) Of course, as some authors (e.g. Stephen in his CameraQuest article) have noted, there's always the possibility of elaborately-engraved genuine examples that might have been commissioned privately as gifts, awards, etc. -- but I would be EXTRA-insistent on provenance before believing such a claim!

PS -- Step under rewind is correct for wartime IIIcs, according to the chart in my not-always-reliable Hove 'Leica Pocket Book.'

 

[doubs43]

Again, using my reference book "Leica, the First 60 Years", I find the following information. The IIIc Leicas marked with a "K" - for "kugellager" (ballbearings) - in their serial number are the first models to use ballbearings in the shutters and were first used by the German military with the Luftwaffe being the largest purchaser. Thus the "K" IIIc Leicas have come to be identified with the Luftwaffe even through they were also used by the other services. (Note: It was originally thought by collectors that the "K" meant "Kalt" or "Kaltfest", for "cold" and "cold proof" and were specially made only for Luftwaffe use at high altitudes. This has since been disproven and the ballbearing explaination is now the accepted one. There is some truth to the theory though as the ballbearings were to provide smoother operation, even in colder temperatures.) In 1946, the production of the IIIc continued with ballbearing shutters and after serial number 400,000 the table or step under the rewind lever was no longer used.

As for the "Reichsadler" markings, it's thought that ONLY the Kreigsmarine (Navy) Leicas carried that marking and then it surmounts an upper case letter "M". (FWIW, I've owned for some years a pair of Leitz Kreigsmarine binoculars marked with the wartime E. Leitz code "beh". Only the leather case has the Reichsadler with swastika over the M impressed into the leather. There are additional marks - "beh" & "1943" - stamped into the case body below the upper lip. Those marks are faint but legible with a cross light.)

Some cameras brought into the US immediately after the war can possibly be identified through the "Capture Papers" that units issued to soldiers for firearms and other items - including cameras - that were brought back as souveniers. The problem now is that certain items have obtained a value great enough to make fake Capture Papers profitable. If you don't know what you're doing, the best advice is to stay away from such items! "Caveate Emptor" is the order of the day.

Walker

Just to roger what the others have stated, it look like the real thing. The more rare version is the "K" model, denoted by the mark on the shutter curtains but it used ball-bearings to operate in colder environments. Those were made for the Luftwaffe, I believe. I also read somewhere that all of the post-war cameras, or at least the IIIf, used the ball bearing movement like the "K".
The pre-war IIIc's had the raised advance/rewind lever. The serian Number is also correct for that period.The red curtains look correct for wartime.

 

[wyk_penguin]

Why is the shutter curtain red? Or should I check my eyes?

 

[Hektor]

They ran out of back stuff

oops: BLACK stuff

 

[Roger Hicks]

The red shutter material was apparently slightly superior to black but very considerably more expensive; it was used because it was available when the black stuff wasn't. Both were used according to availability: I half-recall that the original black fabric may have been of US manufacture. At least, all this is what I heard from serious collectors when I used to collect Leicas (I stopped collecting them about 30 years ago, but retained many friends among collectors).

It has just occurred to me that my previous post might be taken as a denial that authentic Reichsadler cameras exist. That was not my intention. All I meant was that Luftwaffen cameras are sufficiently common that I have handled several, whereas Reichsadler cameras are sufficiently rare that I have never handled one.

Cheers,

Roger

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Well! This has been informative! I wish I had papers to go with my 1946 Retina II that has the Army Captain's name written on the case. It is the "odd one" with the camera body made in Germany and the Kodak Ektar 47mm F2 lens made here. It has an "EO" serial number prefix, denoting 1946.

My IIIC, factory converted to a IIIF, has a starts with a "42", placing it after the war. I'm glad to know it used the "Ball-Bearing" shutter. I always wondered about that.