sevo
Fokutorendaburando
As far as I know, the F4 was the first pro Nikon to have a flexible circuit board.
The F2 prisms were invented when flexible PCBs were still unknown, and had a rigid circuit board (if it even deserves to be called that - on the DP-1/DP-11 it had no function beyond holding the adjustment pots). As far as I know, they did not have any electronics issues early in their life (resistor ring wear only hit them after many years of use).
The F3 often had LCD issues, and the LCD is hooked up via a flexible printed tape conductor - maybe that was called flexible PCB by some.
The F2AS (with DP-12 head) was the last F2 to be introduced and the first to use a novel wear-resistant resistor ring. Maybe that had some issue initially?
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
AndySig
Established
I had a look at an M9 (while buying a 35mm Summaron) and mentioned the problem of the price to the dealer. He pointed out the prices of the leading Nikons and Canons. "Fair enough", I thought while remembering that there was one problem: the M stops at 135 mm. Now if the M10 allows focussing by rangefinder up to 135 mm and on the screen for longer focal lengths and if longer focal lengths are produced accordingly, then it could be regarded as a full blown pro camera. It would be loads better than its rivals as they have a zillion buttons and are huge. I suppose it depends on whether or not Leica wants to compete in that market too.
Tom, most camera shops before digi & Internet-era were like that. often it was forbidden even to touch Nikon or Canon SLR's, if you had too cheap clothes, were too young to have the money, or just didn't look right for shop owner. perhaps big city shops somewhere in "West" were different, but definitely not where I was growing up
It was that way in NYC. When I was 21 and had $3000 to spend on a Leica...but dressed like a skateboarder, shops treated me like crap. There was a time I showed a wad of cash and told the guy it could have been theirs... of course his tune changed, but it was too late. Idiots.
mugget
Established
Well said, rxmd.
The other thing that I find kind of funny is that so many DSLR users are arguing that their Canon/Nikon/whatever has just as good image quality for a fraction of the price. But they're completely missing the point, it's like they forget that Leica M cameras are rangefinders. I wonder if alot of them even realise that or know the differences to SLR...
True. But people do keep buying them... so for me that kind of puts an end to the "inflated prices" argument. Makes sense, right?
The other thing I see alot of are people commenting that they'd buy a Leica M, if they weren't so expensive. Others just outright categorise "rich people" as the only type of person who buys a Leica. That really gets my goat. :bang: They forget the fact that some people just have very clearly defined goals in life and know what they want, and they work their ass off to achieve it. For example I would not call myself rich, I earned average wage for about the last couple of years (less before then). I sold my DSLR gear that I had accumulated over 3-4 years to buy a used M8 and 50mm Summilux. Even selling all my DSLR gear my savings were emptied as well. But I do not regret it, not one bit! Saying that it's "too expensive" is just a cop out. If someone really wanted one, they would work, save, and get it.
Another interesting comment that I saw on a photo blog article about the M Monochrom was the fact mentioned that if an artist sold one of their prints in a gallery, it would pay for the Monochrom. That makes sense to me, so I don't think the argument that this new camera and lens is only for collectors holds up.
In the meantime I'm sure that there will be plenty of armchair tough guys who continue complaining about Leica prices while remaining ignorant to the facts about rangefinder cameras and Leica glass...
The other thing that I find kind of funny is that so many DSLR users are arguing that their Canon/Nikon/whatever has just as good image quality for a fraction of the price. But they're completely missing the point, it's like they forget that Leica M cameras are rangefinders. I wonder if alot of them even realise that or know the differences to SLR...
True. But people do keep buying them... so for me that kind of puts an end to the "inflated prices" argument. Makes sense, right?
The other thing I see alot of are people commenting that they'd buy a Leica M, if they weren't so expensive. Others just outright categorise "rich people" as the only type of person who buys a Leica. That really gets my goat. :bang: They forget the fact that some people just have very clearly defined goals in life and know what they want, and they work their ass off to achieve it. For example I would not call myself rich, I earned average wage for about the last couple of years (less before then). I sold my DSLR gear that I had accumulated over 3-4 years to buy a used M8 and 50mm Summilux. Even selling all my DSLR gear my savings were emptied as well. But I do not regret it, not one bit! Saying that it's "too expensive" is just a cop out. If someone really wanted one, they would work, save, and get it.
Another interesting comment that I saw on a photo blog article about the M Monochrom was the fact mentioned that if an artist sold one of their prints in a gallery, it would pay for the Monochrom. That makes sense to me, so I don't think the argument that this new camera and lens is only for collectors holds up.
In the meantime I'm sure that there will be plenty of armchair tough guys who continue complaining about Leica prices while remaining ignorant to the facts about rangefinder cameras and Leica glass...
Ryan1938
Established
I don't think Leica is feeling the effects of their leap away from photography/the arts and towards the world of fashion yet, but I think they will. It's unfortunate, but there is just no way the young and more relevant artists can afford a Leica anymore. And when you lose that audience, you often lose them for life.
Think about the "hipsters" that are carrying around Fuji's X100. A small percentage of those folks will turn into talented photographers and make a life's work doing it. As they get older, they will be more inclined to stay with what they learned - Fuji.
Hell, I'm a 30-something professional and I can't afford a digital m-mount leica. I'm just lucky to have my M6 and a decent selection of lenses. The pricing and the recent releases have really put a bad taste in my mouth...
Think about the "hipsters" that are carrying around Fuji's X100. A small percentage of those folks will turn into talented photographers and make a life's work doing it. As they get older, they will be more inclined to stay with what they learned - Fuji.
Hell, I'm a 30-something professional and I can't afford a digital m-mount leica. I'm just lucky to have my M6 and a decent selection of lenses. The pricing and the recent releases have really put a bad taste in my mouth...
I agree. Fashion is finicky and cyclical. Leicas will eventually be out of fashion. Better to stick with photographers, but maybe they can't rely on photographers anymore.
Lax Jought
Well-known
Fujifilm is proving that wrong.
furcafe
Veteran
Exactly. Per rxmd's original post, when Leica started out all high-end photographic tools were luxury goods. Starting in the 1960s, though, w/the shift to more easily manufactured SLR designs, high-end photographic tools no longer had to be luxury goods. With the advent of electronics that trend only accelerated. Like Swiss watchmakers or the Morgan Motor Co., Leica has remained true, by design or default, to a product & industrial model that is relatively labor-intensive &, therefore, expensive.
Paul Luscher
Well-known
Well, I know I certainly didn't start with Leicas because they were a luxury product. Like I've said before, I ended up using them because of the specific situations I was shooting in. But whatever.
Actually, I disagree about when they became a luxury product. I bought my M6 in 1995, and $2,000 didn't seem that much to ask, considering at that time it was the only rangefinder around--economies of scale and such. When I bought the MP in 2003, it still didn't seem like a luxury good. For me, it was the a la carte program and the association with Hermes that convinced me that Leica was turning into bling for the 1% (though I still shoot 'em).
As I've often said, I'm concerned that Leica doesn't seem to be interested in turning out cameras a working photographer could afford and use, which I frankly think is a shame and might be bad for the company in the long run.
But on the other hand, there's the question of whether Leica would be able to build the kind of M camera it does, at a price competitive with what's coming out of Japan....
Actually, I disagree about when they became a luxury product. I bought my M6 in 1995, and $2,000 didn't seem that much to ask, considering at that time it was the only rangefinder around--economies of scale and such. When I bought the MP in 2003, it still didn't seem like a luxury good. For me, it was the a la carte program and the association with Hermes that convinced me that Leica was turning into bling for the 1% (though I still shoot 'em).
As I've often said, I'm concerned that Leica doesn't seem to be interested in turning out cameras a working photographer could afford and use, which I frankly think is a shame and might be bad for the company in the long run.
But on the other hand, there's the question of whether Leica would be able to build the kind of M camera it does, at a price competitive with what's coming out of Japan....
BobYIL
Well-known
The heydays of M-Leica was between '55 to '65, until most of the PJs turned to Nikon F..
Before there were "luxury" versions, really expensive due to gold plating, etc. The "special" versions of Leica was rather in the period of "decadence" when Leica figured out imprinting something simple on the top plate could bring extra cash (negligible extra cost but impressive price tag). Before it, as I recall the 50th year anniversary M5, M4 and CL models have been offered with the same price as the regulars (and lots of people -including myself- chose the regular versions just to avoid emblems on their cameras. )
I think it was the period of decadence when the collectors began to show interest on the special versions. In the 60's, the M2-R or the black-paint ones were not even 15% more expensive than the chrome ones. Black paint was something to stay away for regulars (bubbling, easily scratched) however black chrome was like heaven-sent.
Before there were "luxury" versions, really expensive due to gold plating, etc. The "special" versions of Leica was rather in the period of "decadence" when Leica figured out imprinting something simple on the top plate could bring extra cash (negligible extra cost but impressive price tag). Before it, as I recall the 50th year anniversary M5, M4 and CL models have been offered with the same price as the regulars (and lots of people -including myself
- chose the regular versions just to avoid emblems on their cameras. ) I think it was the period of decadence when the collectors began to show interest on the special versions. In the 60's, the M2-R or the black-paint ones were not even 15% more expensive than the chrome ones. Black paint was something to stay away for regulars (bubbling, easily scratched) however black chrome was like heaven-sent.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
What would be ironic is if Leica actually fixed every issue known and added durability in the M9M. We don't know as of yet because the camera has no track record. But if there existed that chance that they actually made a camera that could have withstood the punishment of the PJs I really look up to like Henri Huet and Philip Jones Griffiths, then it would be amazing but too little, too late.
I just traded my beloved custom modified M4-P for a Fuji X100 (from a fellow RFF member) and I'm quite happy. The X100 is not a luxury camera at all but from the images I got yesterday (first day with it) I see that it is already outperforming my M9 in some respects, especially metering and color. It came with a Luigi case and strap so I guess I got a luxury leather package going. When I get really comfortable with it, I may sell my 35 'Lux. Actually, I should do that right now.
I guess what I'm saying is that out of the box the X100 has been fantastic (but only one day of shooting.) My M9 right out of the box had to be returned on the third day of ownership and has been back to Leica another two times for major issues.
If it's a luxury good then they should treat it and advertise it as such. If it is a working pro's tool then they need to get on the ball with service and make like the old Leica with prompt repairs and loaner cameras overnighted to any location in the world with Leica service as they used to do.
I'll never be able to afford an M9M or any other new Leica. If/when I am forced to sell my M9 (coming up dreadfully soon to feed myself) I will never be able to afford even a used body at $5k because I feel like I'm going to struggling to survive for quite some time. I'll sell it and get a mint D2x, a camera I know can take punishment and that can be repaired quickly at a local facility.
Phil Forrest
I just traded my beloved custom modified M4-P for a Fuji X100 (from a fellow RFF member) and I'm quite happy. The X100 is not a luxury camera at all but from the images I got yesterday (first day with it) I see that it is already outperforming my M9 in some respects, especially metering and color. It came with a Luigi case and strap so I guess I got a luxury leather package going. When I get really comfortable with it, I may sell my 35 'Lux. Actually, I should do that right now.
I guess what I'm saying is that out of the box the X100 has been fantastic (but only one day of shooting.) My M9 right out of the box had to be returned on the third day of ownership and has been back to Leica another two times for major issues.
If it's a luxury good then they should treat it and advertise it as such. If it is a working pro's tool then they need to get on the ball with service and make like the old Leica with prompt repairs and loaner cameras overnighted to any location in the world with Leica service as they used to do.
I'll never be able to afford an M9M or any other new Leica. If/when I am forced to sell my M9 (coming up dreadfully soon to feed myself) I will never be able to afford even a used body at $5k because I feel like I'm going to struggling to survive for quite some time. I'll sell it and get a mint D2x, a camera I know can take punishment and that can be repaired quickly at a local facility.
Phil Forrest
DRabbit
Registered
I love the x100 too, but one week out the box I had to send it in for servicing... and there are "known issues" with it.
Now, that's not to say overall you're not right. I'd expect a $7000+ camera body to be the "ultimate" in terms of reliability and durability... and with Leica's reputation as the photojournalists camera, it should be. A lot of people seem to feel it's not.
Of course, without trying to jinx myself, I've had the M8 five years and haven't had any issues until a recent possible "stuck pixel" (red line issue) at high ISOs. YMMV
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
Amy,
I got my X100 used so I *think* and *hope* that all the issues would have made themselves known by now.
On the M8, the stuck pixel will get worse and gradually creep its way into the lower ISOs. I had mine returned twice for them once they reached ISO320. If you have a good post-processing program and discipline then you can take care of them yourself until the line gets too thick and bright.
OT: By the way, I still want to send you a "Life With Lupus" book, don't worry about payment. Or I could meet you in NYC at the beginning of June. I'll be up in the city bunny sitting 'till the 9th.
Phil Forrest
I got my X100 used so I *think* and *hope* that all the issues would have made themselves known by now.
On the M8, the stuck pixel will get worse and gradually creep its way into the lower ISOs. I had mine returned twice for them once they reached ISO320. If you have a good post-processing program and discipline then you can take care of them yourself until the line gets too thick and bright.
OT: By the way, I still want to send you a "Life With Lupus" book, don't worry about payment. Or I could meet you in NYC at the beginning of June. I'll be up in the city bunny sitting 'till the 9th.
Phil Forrest
DRabbit
Registered
Phil,
I got my x100 used also (through Amazon). Ended up with the Sticky-Aperture sickness and luckily Fuji fixed it free of charge because I had proof of purchase through Amazon. It's actually on it's way back and should get here later today! (Fuji service is great... the turn-around time has literally been one week).
Yeah, I've heard the M8 issue will get worse. Luckily for now, I only see it in very dark scenes at ISO 640 or above... and after the last firmware update, it actually seems better (could be psychological LOL). I'll send it in eventually, but I know Leica may have it for a while, so I'll hold off as long as I can.
PM me and we could get together for some shooting and/or coffee! That would be great!
I got my x100 used also (through Amazon). Ended up with the Sticky-Aperture sickness and luckily Fuji fixed it free of charge because I had proof of purchase through Amazon. It's actually on it's way back and should get here later today! (Fuji service is great... the turn-around time has literally been one week).
Yeah, I've heard the M8 issue will get worse. Luckily for now, I only see it in very dark scenes at ISO 640 or above... and after the last firmware update, it actually seems better (could be psychological LOL). I'll send it in eventually, but I know Leica may have it for a while, so I'll hold off as long as I can.
PM me and we could get together for some shooting and/or coffee! That would be great!
Paul Luscher
Well-known
Wonder if the Em-5 might also put a dent into Leica's profits. It's got all the advantages of the M--compactness, lightness, unobtrusiveness, plus a ton of features the M9 will never have--and all at a price about 1/7 the cost of an M9.
robert blu
quiet photographer
If for any reason a camera is a little "delicate", which let say it could happen in a very sophisticated mechanism I would expect an excellent customer service in order to repair in a short time the possible failures. Specially if the camera is not a cheap one.
robert
robert
ddutchison
Well-known
That's a perfect analogy.
Like a Rolex, or a Morgan 8, The Leica M is a beautiful throwback to another era.
Great photography can be done with any camera ever made, but if your livelihood depends on creating great photography, you're probably going to live better if you use a Canon EOS.
Paul Luscher
Well-known
braver
Well-known
Of course it won't. It has never been about a features comparison and I doubt any of the 4/3 camera's releases has shown up in a Leica profit graph. Not the same market by a long shot.