Hirishima and Pearl Harbor

wlewisiii said:
KZ, I really have actually enjoyed this conversation tonight and I do hope it has been better than a blood pressure raiser for you as well. I've popped "Enola Gay" by OMD up on iTunes in honor of this thread... :eek:

Thank you,

William
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I echo your sentiments, William. I also enjoy a good discussion, however I prefer it in person, at a table in the corner of some darkened bar... if you are ever out my way, I'd be proud to stand you a drink or two, in honor of your 16 years service.
Best Regards, my friend,
KZ
 
I fear we'd get into a buying spiral :D But I'd be honored to quaff a couple with you, sir. It's alway's best to keep these kinds of things clean that way. Let's joe have a few momnet's rest of nothing else.

And, more seriously, joe, I'll let this one go so you don't need to keep checking in. ZK, have a blessed night and we'll see you in a different thread.

And a blessed night to anyone else still following this... :)

William
 
guys,

my concern is not in how you deal with topics like these.

it's the topic itself. it is so way off topic from rf cameras or even just plain ol' photography that i wonder the need/reason for it being brought up in the first place.

i know there are political forums out there.
other forums might be better suited for conversations of this nature.

joe
 
There is one angle, rarely mentioned. And that is the USSR had declared war on Japan very late in the war, and that they were working their way to an invasion of the Japanese mainland. Truman wanted to end the war quickly, and used both bombs in rapid succession to "Bluff" the Japanese into thinking that we had a large stockpile.

It's hard to imagine what the latter half of the 20th century would have been like if the USSR had invaded and occupied large portions of Japan, as they did in Easterm Euope. It is also hard to estimate the numbers of Japanese Civilians that would have committed suicide rather than be "taken by the Enemy" as happened in Okinawa.

Debate it all you want. Ask someone that was in the war if it was necessary.
I Did, and I'm giving you his answer. The hell with all of the revisionist historians and their worthless opinions.
 
Brian Sweeney said:
Debate it all you want. Ask someone that was in the war if it was necessary. I Did, and I'm giving you his answer. The hell with all of the revisionist historians and their worthless opinions.
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A fine way to ensure the end of a thread. Not that I haven't done it myself, just saying.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
Why Thankyou Bill, it's nice to know I am in Good Company.

Could someone please correct the spelling in the thread header before its gets closed (which is not a bad thing)? It really does look foolish to debate whether people know their history and not get the spelling of "Hiroshima" correct.

And watch out, I've got Edward Jablonski out on the subject of strategic bombing in the European Theater. In total war, there is no such thing as an innocent civilian population. Just ask the Luftwaffe and RAF.

GO JOE!!!
 
Thanks everyone. My sole intention was to say that some people worry too much that their particular nation has the worst education/worst this/worst that, and there is no national monopoly on ignorance and stupidity -- or indeed knowledge and intelligence.

Most countries and peoples are more alike than they are different, though their leaders may be another matter. Pretending exceptionalism, whether exaggerated superiority or exaggerated inferiority, is usually very stupid indeed.

Some of the stories have been extremely illuminating -- and I certainly agree that with the information available at the time, the atomic bombs probably saved countless American and Japanese (and probably other) lives, though as Eco says, all counterfactual conditionals are true.

Relevance to rangefinder photography? Well, that was part of the point of my AP article where I mentioned this forum. If you have a bunch of people, international in background. who opinions you often respect, then to treat them as nothing more than rangefinder photographers strikes me as an insult and a waste of a fascinating resource for learning more about other people.

Sure, it's not central, and it's not what most of the forum should be about. But i believe that threads such as this broaden people's minds and understanding and that must help make them better photiographers. It's certainly more use than yet another D76/Rodinal 'debate'.

Cheers,

Roger
 
Incidentally there is historical knowledge and there are typing skills. I do know how to spell 'Hiroshima' -- look at para 2 of the original post -- but my keyboard doesn't. Sorry!

Cheers,

Roger
 
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Krasnaya,
I'm afraid that some of your beliefs as to the japanese being willing to surrender if the Emperor was guaranteed to remain, is quite incorrect. There's a good piece in many U.S. newspapers editorial page today that shines new light on that issue from declassified (since 1995) intercepted messages the Japanese diplomats sent to each other in July, 1945. There's something like 1 million messages the "Magic" system intercepted, and they DO mention that the diplomats DID know we had already offered the retention of the Emperor, and they still ruled out unconditional surrender, but opted to wait for a better deal. They figured that once we invaded and suffered immense casualties, that the american public would pressure the government to make a quick deal to end the war before Japan was conquered. Truman and the Joint Chiefs had thought we'd face only 3 Japanese Army divisions and, at the most, 2,000 aircraft. We then learned that the Japanese had moved 10 divisions to the area and that the country still had approx. 10,000 aircraft at its disposal. The U.S. Navy, faced with those new figures began arguing against an invasion, and instead was pushing for a blockade and aerial bombardment.

I'm sure, faced with this new intelligence, as well as a rift among the Joint Chiefs, we can more easily see why Truman made the decision to go ahead with the A-bombs, since we never really got the story behind his decision.

Much of the info in today's article was also verified today by my father-in-law, who had survived (barely) Iwo Jima and was training for the coming invasion with his fellow Marines. He knew then about the Navy's reservations and their pending coming out against the invasion.
 
For those who receive "The History Channel", This coming Friday Night at 8PM there will be a show on the final days of WW-II, focussing on the Last Days of Japan.

Leica M3, Summarit 5cm F1.5 wide-open.
 
Some Facts, from reading through some books that my Father (Joseph Sweeney) left to me, and some others at work.

1) Over 12,000 Japanese Aircraft were taken into custody at the end of the War. Most had been converted for Suicide Attacks. 13M gallons of gasoline was on the island. The Japanese Air Force had been instructed not to attack small formations of aircraft, to hold back for the expected invasion.

2) On August 10th (after Nagasaki was destroyed) the Japanese broadcast its willingness to surrender on one condition: The Emperor was to remain as the Sovereign Ruler of Japan. This condition was refused. After the unconditional surrender he remained as a "figurehead".

4) Many of Japan's Top Staff wanted to fight to the last rather than "do the unthinkable" and surrender. The last Japanese soldier surrendered in 1972.

5) February 13th, 1945 marks what was probably the deadliest night of the War, with estimated dead at 135,000~235,000. This was the nighttime firebombing of Dresden by RAF Lancasters. The RAF used firebombs against many German cities, including a 1943 attack on Hamburg that left more than 45,000 dead. This is well before B29's were in any position to launch strikes against Japan. These single-night losses of Dresden and Hamburg are greater than those in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, respectively.

Zeppelin attacks during WW-I pretty much mark the beginning of aerial bombing attacks aimed solely at killing anybody possible. The Blitz on London brought it to new heights. The RAF pretty much destroyed "all of those lovely German towns" as Edward Jablonski wrote. With all the aerial raids on Civilian targets, on all sides, why is it that people question the Morality and necessity of Hiroshima and Nagasaki alone?
 
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Dear Brian,

Your point about Dresden is well made, and I was at school in Plymouth, where after one night's particularly heavy bombing there were just four buildings left standing in ther old city centre: Methodist Central Hall, the Bank of England building, the Western Morning News offices and a cinema. My father said that what struck him as he looked over the centre that morning was how small it was, once it was all flattened: what he had always thought of as a good-sized area, with all its historic streets, was a quarter of the size he imagined. Needless to say he has never forgotten that sight.

We also have to allow that as far as most people knew, the atomic bomb was mainly a way of delivering a 'thousand-bomber raid', Dresden-style, with one aircraft. The full nature of radiation burns, etc., was very little understood, least of all by the military who were not au fait with the technology.

Cheers,

Roger
 
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