reagan
hey, they're only Zorkis
In reading about FSUs I don’t really recall coming across any info concerning a guess at the MSRP for a new Zorki/FED/Kiev/Moskva at the time they were manufactured. My understanding of most of these is that they were made to be sold to Average Joe in the Soviet Union. True? Or were they priced toward those who maybe had a little more than most folks? Then later, those cameras made for export to the US were possibly priced for the US market... a little price hike?
Out of curiosity, does anyone have an idea about the pricing of Zorki, FED. Kiev or Moskva, say in the 50’s & 60’s? (Ballpark guesstimations welcome.) Thanx.
Out of curiosity, does anyone have an idea about the pricing of Zorki, FED. Kiev or Moskva, say in the 50’s & 60’s? (Ballpark guesstimations welcome.) Thanx.
kiev4a
Well-known
I'm sure somebody has the info you are seek. But be aware of the situation in the Soviet Union when these cameras were being produced.
Reason 1 for the cameras was to give people jobs. I don't think the Communists were as concerned about producing something that could be sold to the outside worls as they were giving as many folks as possible something to do.
2. The average person in Soviet society didn't have much in the way of frills. The cameras were a way of giving people a frill. The prices were highly subsidized so nearly everyone could boast that they has a real 35mm camera. The Everyman's cameras were the Zorki 2Cs and the FED 2 and later the Zorki 4 and Mir. It you were higher up in the pecking order you might have a Zorki 3 or Kiev.
Reason 1 for the cameras was to give people jobs. I don't think the Communists were as concerned about producing something that could be sold to the outside worls as they were giving as many folks as possible something to do.
2. The average person in Soviet society didn't have much in the way of frills. The cameras were a way of giving people a frill. The prices were highly subsidized so nearly everyone could boast that they has a real 35mm camera. The Everyman's cameras were the Zorki 2Cs and the FED 2 and later the Zorki 4 and Mir. It you were higher up in the pecking order you might have a Zorki 3 or Kiev.
eric
[was]: emaquiling
Good point. My friend at work, is from near the Turkish border in Russia. His wife is from Moscow. He said that she hated waiting in line all freaking day to get stuff from the grocery only to be out by the time she gets there. I wouldn't think she would wait in line for a camera. Needless to say, she would never go back there.kiev4a said:
kiev4a
Well-known
I've always figured the reason every Soviet camera has a leather, neverready case, was that making the cases put x number of people to work doing something. To understand how Soviet industry worked (and why quality is so varied) get hold of a copy of Hedrick Smith's "The Russians" published in the 1970s.
reagan
hey, they're only Zorkis
Great input, and pretty much along the lines I was thinking - an everyman's camera. Though I hadn't thought of it, I have read the "creating jobs" purpose to photo equipment production. The Law of Supply & Demand had a different twist - Supply Jobs! despite the lack of Demand for the product. Keep the people busy [so they won't notice the absence of food on the shelves...?]
I know a good little book seller that just might have a copy of Smith's book squirreled away in his pack-rat of a book store. I'll give him a call. Thanks.
So, all things considered, it would make the price of these little nuggets quite minimal; a man who stands in line for bread is not going to spend too much for the frills of a camera; they're too tough to cook and don't make enough fire to keep him warm. It probably wouldn't be a priority for me either.
Let's take a guess. Prices in the shops, new in the box for a Zorki 2C or FED 2 during 1950's/60's ::: 10bucks US? 20?
Oh, for the love of Pete! Why don't I just write Oleg and ask him???? He'd probably have a good idea. Or Fedka for cryin' out loud! What am I thinkin'???
2Bangs :bang: :bang: I'm an idiot!!
I know a good little book seller that just might have a copy of Smith's book squirreled away in his pack-rat of a book store. I'll give him a call. Thanks.
So, all things considered, it would make the price of these little nuggets quite minimal; a man who stands in line for bread is not going to spend too much for the frills of a camera; they're too tough to cook and don't make enough fire to keep him warm. It probably wouldn't be a priority for me either.
Let's take a guess. Prices in the shops, new in the box for a Zorki 2C or FED 2 during 1950's/60's ::: 10bucks US? 20?
Oh, for the love of Pete! Why don't I just write Oleg and ask him???? He'd probably have a good idea. Or Fedka for cryin' out loud! What am I thinkin'???
2Bangs :bang: :bang: I'm an idiot!!
V
varjag
Guest
The issue with leather cases is that up to 1950s the leather was a commodity in USSR, unlike dermantine. Then, consider that some of the cameras were made after Western prototypes, and those had leather cases/finish too.
A caveat to those researching historic Soviet prices: in 1961, Soviet rouble was denominated by factor of 10. That is, what was 10 roubles became 1 rouble. I guess it made some enthusiast researches to infer from the large pre-1961 numbers that the cameras were meant for "party bosses" only - they were not. They certainly had varying quality and sophistication, but photography was pretty common hobby and you could definitely afford a camera, or at least save for one in a few months.
A caveat to those researching historic Soviet prices: in 1961, Soviet rouble was denominated by factor of 10. That is, what was 10 roubles became 1 rouble. I guess it made some enthusiast researches to infer from the large pre-1961 numbers that the cameras were meant for "party bosses" only - they were not. They certainly had varying quality and sophistication, but photography was pretty common hobby and you could definitely afford a camera, or at least save for one in a few months.
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
One more thing to add to the discussion. I'm not sure about the USSR but in other communist countries like Romania, export was the main goal of production. "We" (i was <13) exported everything that was not defective. That included salami (they made very good salami in a certain city in Romania but we have seen it only 2-3 times a year and always via somebody who knew somebody who knew somebody...who knew somebody working in the factory), pencils, massive wooden furniture, clothing, etc, up to components for nuclear reactors (my little hometown had a factory that produced large size iron cast components for canadian nuclear power plants in the eighties, supersecret action and still everybody knew it).
No matter the 3-4 hour lines in front of the bakery at five in the morning, the most iportant thing was to keep the "image of the country" good for the rest of the world.
No matter the 3-4 hour lines in front of the bakery at five in the morning, the most iportant thing was to keep the "image of the country" good for the rest of the world.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Ceaucescu's Romania was an extreme and indeed insane example, but another point worth making is that many things had fixed, low prices but were not actually available. When I was in the Soviet Union in 1990, for example, the state price for tomatoes was 35 kopeks/kilo but the only way you could actually buy them was in one of the new 'free markets' such as Dogoromilovskaya Market at 2 roubles/kilo. And once at a restaurant I was given 200g of caviare (Oscietra Malossol -- my favourite!) in lieu of change.
Other things were snapped up as soon as they were available. I remember seeing a bunch of Vietnamese clean out the enlargers on the camera store on Kutusovsky Prospekt (Jupiter?), almost as fast as they had come in.
Capitalism is disastrous in theory but not too bad in reality, at least when administered by leaders who are not illiterate, insane, etc. and modified by half-decent social legislation, but even the best forms of communism or socialism, administered by the most noble and disinterested of leaders, tend to be worse. Then of course you have communism with leaders like Ceaucescu!
Incidentally, Pherdinand, is your first language Roman or Magyar? I only recently learned that Magyar speakers are in fact a minority in Transylvania. Magyar propaganda post-Trianon was pretty good -- though one of my oldest and closest friends is admittedly Hungarian.
Cheers,
Roger
Other things were snapped up as soon as they were available. I remember seeing a bunch of Vietnamese clean out the enlargers on the camera store on Kutusovsky Prospekt (Jupiter?), almost as fast as they had come in.
Capitalism is disastrous in theory but not too bad in reality, at least when administered by leaders who are not illiterate, insane, etc. and modified by half-decent social legislation, but even the best forms of communism or socialism, administered by the most noble and disinterested of leaders, tend to be worse. Then of course you have communism with leaders like Ceaucescu!
Incidentally, Pherdinand, is your first language Roman or Magyar? I only recently learned that Magyar speakers are in fact a minority in Transylvania. Magyar propaganda post-Trianon was pretty good -- though one of my oldest and closest friends is admittedly Hungarian.
Cheers,
Roger
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
Hungarian. Yep, we're a minority, about 8% of the country's population, but not equally distributed. I lived for 18 years in a 40.000 town with 95% hungarians which lies geographically in the middle of Romania (see map in the other thread). Pretty funny, huh?
) There are 2-3 more towns like this in transylvania. The town has 5 elementary/general and 6 high- and technical schools where kids learn 100% in hungarian up to the age of 18, except subjeects like Romania's history and languages of course.
I've learned romanian only in the school + at university (in a far city). I still make mistakes when speaking it, occasionally.
By the way, there are occasional conflicts between hu/ro groups, but they are *always* artifficially created. I myself stay here in the Netherlands sharing a house with a romanian guy from the eastern region, Moldova, and he got married with a half romanian half hungarian girl from the far north, Maramaros We get along pretty good for 3 years already.
Back to the subjkect:
I agree, communism as idea is very nice but in practice it will never work because "some are more equal". I find it so funny when I hear people from western europe stating proudly that they are communists in their beliefs...
Cheers
) There are 2-3 more towns like this in transylvania. The town has 5 elementary/general and 6 high- and technical schools where kids learn 100% in hungarian up to the age of 18, except subjeects like Romania's history and languages of course.I've learned romanian only in the school + at university (in a far city). I still make mistakes when speaking it, occasionally.
By the way, there are occasional conflicts between hu/ro groups, but they are *always* artifficially created. I myself stay here in the Netherlands sharing a house with a romanian guy from the eastern region, Moldova, and he got married with a half romanian half hungarian girl from the far north, Maramaros
We get along pretty good for 3 years already.Back to the subjkect:
I agree, communism as idea is very nice but in practice it will never work because "some are more equal". I find it so funny when I hear people from western europe stating proudly that they are communists in their beliefs...
Cheers
Bill K.
Established
In my late teens in the "nifty fifties" I would drive my Mom to Toronto (from Sudbury Ont.) so that she send special parcels to our relatives in the Ukraine. There were stores in Toronto who specialized in such import and export transactions and many of them at the time sold Russian Cameras.
As I recall, there were a number of "Leica types" in their display cases and prices were in the range of $60.00 to $100.00 Cdn. (The Can & US Dollars were almost on par)
These cameras did look nice, but beyond my meager means at the time. A good week's wages in those days was about $85.00.
Bill K.
As I recall, there were a number of "Leica types" in their display cases and prices were in the range of $60.00 to $100.00 Cdn. (The Can & US Dollars were almost on par)
These cameras did look nice, but beyond my meager means at the time. A good week's wages in those days was about $85.00.
Bill K.
oftheherd
Veteran
I don't know why, but I am reminded of the quote I heard attributed to a Soviet worker, that went something like ... "They pretended to pay us and we pretended to work."
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Oftheherd,
That attitude was still alive at German unification!
Cheers,
Roger (www.rogerandfrances.vom)
That attitude was still alive at German unification!
Cheers,
Roger (www.rogerandfrances.vom)
nemjo
Avatar Challenge
Back to the starting question: I bought my first cam (a Lubitel2) in '69 for just 300 HUF. It was my salary for a two weeks 6 hours/day job in the summer holiday.
(My other dream was a Beirette, but it was too much, nearly 400.)
Unfortunately I don't remember the HUF/RBL exchange rate - I was only 15 then.
But it is not important as the dual echange system (different rates in 'tourist' and 'trade' purposes) was definitely cut from real rates.
Therefore it was a pretty nice business to 'import' goods from places where they were ridiculously cheep - ofcourse for those who could travel.
By the way, the convertibility of national devises in the sixties was a new idea even in western countries...
As I saw this thread I thought I can easily answer the question as soviets used to print the price on the goods. ... except my Fed...So it's clear, it was made for export not for inland trade.
Cheers,
nemjo
(My other dream was a Beirette, but it was too much, nearly 400.)
Unfortunately I don't remember the HUF/RBL exchange rate - I was only 15 then.
But it is not important as the dual echange system (different rates in 'tourist' and 'trade' purposes) was definitely cut from real rates.
Therefore it was a pretty nice business to 'import' goods from places where they were ridiculously cheep - ofcourse for those who could travel.
By the way, the convertibility of national devises in the sixties was a new idea even in western countries...
As I saw this thread I thought I can easily answer the question as soviets used to print the price on the goods. ... except my Fed...So it's clear, it was made for export not for inland trade.
Cheers,
nemjo
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Nemjo,
Where are you?
Maybe we can see you next year.
(This year: Igal, Sarospatak)
Cheers,
Roger (www.rogerandfrances.ciom)
Where are you?
Maybe we can see you next year.
(This year: Igal, Sarospatak)
Cheers,
Roger (www.rogerandfrances.ciom)
nemjo
Avatar Challenge
Hello Rogoer,
just the other part of the country - Tatabanya.
But I took my german friends a few weeks ago to Tokaj, and as it is only a few kms we were at 'Patak too. I'm sure you'll take very nice pics there.
nemjo
just the other part of the country - Tatabanya.
But I took my german friends a few weeks ago to Tokaj, and as it is only a few kms we were at 'Patak too. I'm sure you'll take very nice pics there.
nemjo
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Nemjo,
Perhaps we can meet next year....
We have a great weaKness for furdoe (sorry, no Hungarian letter-accents available)
Cheers,
Roger
Perhaps we can meet next year....
We have a great weaKness for furdoe (sorry, no Hungarian letter-accents available)
Cheers,
Roger
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
If it helps, my Jupiter-8 42mm- slip-on plastic,round lens hood has 25 pokep pressed in it, that is, 1/4 ruble.
The box of the jupi-9 for Kiev has a handwritten 90 Rsomething, on the paper sticker, but i dunno how old the writing might be.
The 85mm viewfinder has the same type of writing saying 4,50 or 6,50.
The box of the jupi-9 for Kiev has a handwritten 90 Rsomething, on the paper sticker, but i dunno how old the writing might be.
The 85mm viewfinder has the same type of writing saying 4,50 or 6,50.
nemjo
Avatar Challenge
Dear Roger,
let me know when to come and we could see...
Do you annually wisit Hungary? If so - you're right...
Cheers,
nemjo
let me know when to come and we could see...
Do you annually wisit Hungary? If so - you're right...
Cheers,
nemjo
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
roger, try alt-129 and alt-148
reagan
hey, they're only Zorkis
Great quote. Hey, I think I've been a member of that same union!
---- KMZ Prices ----
from Oleg:
Hello *****
I found info about some KMZ cameras:
Camera - lens - year - price in roubles
Zorki-6 Industar-50 196x 35 -
Zorki-4K Industar-50 1977 40 -
Zorki-4K Jupiter-8 1977 49,5 -
Narciss Vega-M1 196x 85 -
Zenit-E Industar-50 197x 77 -
Zenit-E Helios-44-2 197x 100 -
Zenit-B Helios-44-2 197x 90 -
Zenit-B Industar-50 197x 67 -
Zenit-EM Helios-44M 1973 140 -
Zenit-16 Helios-44M 197x 250 -
Zenit-18 Helios-44M 1980--1985 540 -
Zenit-19 Helios-44M 198x 295 -
Zenit-Automat Helios-44K-4 198x 235 -
Zenit-11 Helios-44M-4 1981--1982 170 -
Zenit-11 Helios-44M-4 1983--1987 140 -
Zenit-12 Helios-44M-4 1983--1985 180 -
Zenit-TTL Helios-44M 197x 180 -
Zenit-12SD Helios-44M-4 1987 195 -
Really hard to compare prices in different years...
Note, in 1961 was money denomination in USSR.
10 roubles before 1961 is equal to one rouble 1961 and later.
If you want to campare FED-Zorki-Kiev-Moskva:
Zorki price equal near FED price (FED may be slightly cheaper)
Kiev was expensive - near two prices of FED.
I can not say definitely about Moskva....
Cheapest 35 mm camera was a Smena (cheapest Smena always cost 15
roubles (150 before 1961 for Smena-1))
Lubitel price was near 25 roubles.
Sincerely,
Oleg
Anyway, I got a note from Oleg this morning with some ballpark figures [which I'll tack on the end here.] He made note of the change in roubles in 1961, but posts only the pre-1961 Smena price. However, it's not hard to do the math. Maybe Pherdinand or others could take a shot at approximating a roubles to dollars exchange rate in or around 1961?oftheherd said:
---- KMZ Prices ----
from Oleg:
Hello *****
I found info about some KMZ cameras:
Camera - lens - year - price in roubles
Zorki-6 Industar-50 196x 35 -
Zorki-4K Industar-50 1977 40 -
Zorki-4K Jupiter-8 1977 49,5 -
Narciss Vega-M1 196x 85 -
Zenit-E Industar-50 197x 77 -
Zenit-E Helios-44-2 197x 100 -
Zenit-B Helios-44-2 197x 90 -
Zenit-B Industar-50 197x 67 -
Zenit-EM Helios-44M 1973 140 -
Zenit-16 Helios-44M 197x 250 -
Zenit-18 Helios-44M 1980--1985 540 -
Zenit-19 Helios-44M 198x 295 -
Zenit-Automat Helios-44K-4 198x 235 -
Zenit-11 Helios-44M-4 1981--1982 170 -
Zenit-11 Helios-44M-4 1983--1987 140 -
Zenit-12 Helios-44M-4 1983--1985 180 -
Zenit-TTL Helios-44M 197x 180 -
Zenit-12SD Helios-44M-4 1987 195 -
Really hard to compare prices in different years...
Note, in 1961 was money denomination in USSR.
10 roubles before 1961 is equal to one rouble 1961 and later.
If you want to campare FED-Zorki-Kiev-Moskva:
Zorki price equal near FED price (FED may be slightly cheaper)
Kiev was expensive - near two prices of FED.
I can not say definitely about Moskva....
Cheapest 35 mm camera was a Smena (cheapest Smena always cost 15
roubles (150 before 1961 for Smena-1))
Lubitel price was near 25 roubles.
Sincerely,
Oleg