horizontal striping!

[laptoprob]

Does anyone have an idea what may cause this horizontal striping? Not on all frames, it's there or it is not. These first two frames next to one another. The second frame shows what happens if you touch the speed dial during exposure. :bang:
The third one is further up the roll and shows the striping again. Nost of the frames have this striping. Not only does this happen with this Scala film, but on all types of film used. Also colour slides: the filters used are not an issue here.
The camera is an IIf red dial with various lenses...

How transparent is film before and during exposure? Could it be the pressure plate? That shows horizontal griding marks, which look like standard to me. But my CLE has little holes in the pressure plate, so this should not be an issue either.

The striping looks like a bullet from a gun: the striping is the same on every frame - if it's there at all. The same stripe at the same position.

I am not aware of any change in use of the camera that might have caused this.

Very puzzling...

 

[ChrisN]

Examine the negs carefully - I think that is probably produced by your scanner, and might not be present on the negs.

Oh, and a suggestion. Could you reduce the size of the files you attach? Save for web and resize to 500 pixels high is a good size for screen viewing. For people with dial-up the large files are a real problem.

 

[Ash]

I've got the same problem, and it isnt due to the camera. My thoughts - it's your scanner.

 

[Bryce]

I've seen this sort of effect before... It can be caused by a horizontal travel focal plane shutter whose curtains aren't moving evenly.
If your slides and neg.s show this viewed in person, most likely your shutter needs a repair.

 

[ChrisN]

Have a close look at the first image. We can see the exposed part of the negative, then the dark frame around that, which is also part of the negative, then, further out again, a lighter grainy looking area, which is not part of the film but has been captured by the scanning process. Now have a look at the vertical banding - it extends right to the edge of the image - outside the negative! I'm pretty sure this is the scanner.

 

[ChrisN]

OK - backtrack! Sorry - you did say "horizontal", didn't you. 😱

I was distracted by the vertical banding. I've never seen that sort of horizontal banding before, but considering the vertical issue as well, it may still be a scanner issue.

Have you had some of the negs scanned with a different scanner, as a check? That would be my first thought. Maybe a lab could do just a few, as a test.

 

[jdos2]

Scanner. 50/60Hz (100/120Hz) hum. I've had the same trouble on occasion. The light source is flickering..

 

[laptoprob]

It is not a scanner problem. It is restricted to this camera. I know the scans are quick and dirty, but that is not the problem. The first one does show some scanner fault but this was the first of the bunch, maybe I was to hastily to scan them.
It is strictly a camera problem. How can it be a shutter problem if it does not show on every frame? The vertical banding and the uneven exposure in the 2nd frame are my own mistakes.
Don't touch that dial! Starting to love and hate the old screwmount...

But this horizontal banding, very similar on every image if and only if it occurs...

The shutter looks light tight to me, otherwise it should appear more or less on every image. Yet some pictures are completely without!

Still puzzled...

 

[payasam]

My IIIc allowed light to leak past the bottom shield, below the lens mount. That caused a single narrow horizontal band near the top of every frame (images having been inverted, of course) which had been in the gate when a lens had been changed in daylight. Your first picture shows, as Chris says, vertical lines at bottom left. At the top of the second picture I see quite broad areas of different density, again vertical. Maybe those (speed dial not rotating freely) are what Bryce saw. What he says cannot be true of a horizontal travel shutter like that of the IIf: it can happen only with a vertical travel one like that of the Contax. No earthly reason why the pressure plate should be involved. Early ones used to be of glass. To my knowledge, unexposed film has never been transparent. It stays what it was during exposure and after exposure, changing only after it has been processed. Thus the expression "latent image". If you scanned prints, you might try scanning them again: but turned around through 90 degrees.

 

[laptoprob]

Thanks Payasam, I too already concluded it can't be the pressure plate. Not looking at the vertical error in the first and second picture, what could possibly cause the similar 'gunbarrel' striping in a lot of pictures?

 

[laptoprob]

I found the cause!

I was puzzling about the number of stripes, the number of stitches (resp. around 50 and 16), not the cause. Bright daylingt shots, short shutter speeds, couold it possibly be the longer speeds did not have this problem?

Yes indeed. The cause is a somewhat jagged edge of the shutter curtain. Where it goes around the metal strip. That causes a large difference in width of the slit at short shutter speeds.

So it is the fabric of the shutter itself. Pffff.

 

[John Shriver]

Yup, that was my diagnosis from looking at the pictures. Only hits you on high speeds. Either the edge of the curtains are frayed, someone used too coarse a fabric, or the shutter is "fading". Fading means that the highest speeds are too short, and indeed you start to see the texture of the edge of the curtain. You can also see diffraction effects.

 

[ChrisN]

I found the cause!

I was puzzling about the number of stripes, the number of stitches (resp. around 50 and 16), not the cause. Bright daylingt shots, short shutter speeds, couold it possibly be the longer speeds did not have this problem?

Yes indeed. The cause is a somewhat jagged edge of the shutter curtain. Where it goes around the metal strip. That causes a large difference in width of the slit at short shutter speeds.

So it is the fabric of the shutter itself. Pffff.

Wow! That's one I have not seen mentioned anywhere before! Well done! You might be able to fill the stitch holes with little dabs of "liquid electrical tape". I used that on minute pinholes in my IVSb shutter curtain.

 

[laptoprob]

It wasn't the stitch holes, Tom. Then the stripes would have been much further apart. Besause the stripes are so regular I had a closer look at the curtain end. There must have accumulated some stuff on the outside of the last threads cornering the shutter end metal strip. Maybe some lubrication, I could easlily wipe it clean.

Deduction my dear Watson, deduction.

 

[Ronald M]

I think the shutter material is defective/old.

I have a 111f that didi the same thing. DAG had it for 9 months and could not fix it. It went to another repair person who repaired it and it is fine.

With the 111f I tried fabric paint oner the stitch holes and examined the edges for freying. That was not the problem.

My 111c which I recently purchased is now being repaied for the same thing and a brand new shutter was put in and it exhibited the same striping. It is at a second repair person, the guy who repaired my 111f. It has been gone 5 months now.

Frankly I will never buy a screw mount camera again.

I might add, the problem on the 111f got much worse and looked EXACTLY like yours when I tried fabric paint on the shutter. I made it much worse with the paint.

I would be willing to bet someone tried a fabric paint repair.

The problem shows up in clear blue skies at 1/1000 and 1/500 only. Good luck.

 

[joeswe]

Solution?

Solution?

I am bringing up this old thread as I stumbled over it while trying to diagnose a problem I have with my new to me IIIf. It shows exactly the same pattern of horizontal striping as the TO's. I am curious to hear if the problem was fixed and how. I would also be interested to hear from Ronald, who had a similar problem, if he can offer any additional insights regarding the cause of the problem and its remedy.

 

[Mike-D]

My IIIf had that problem. It drove me nuts for a while but eventually I realized it was fraying of the curtain edge. I applied a little glue to the edge and pushed the frays down and the problem was fixed.