marcr1230
Well-known
I just had an interesting conversation with my local camera repairman regarding reliability of various cameras. He mentioned that he has fixed a couple Nikon RF reissues and that they are not as reliable as the originals.
He also stated that some of the internal parts were plastic. Additionally he said that you can't interchange parts from one to the other.
Now, I'll grant there are statistical biases at work. Any original Nikon RF that had a weak internal part or other build problem was probably junked long ago and those that survive and continue to be used are the best of the breed. Regarding parts, I assumed the reissues where mechanically equivalent, but perhaps different materials are used for some parts and it's not ideal to mix and match with the original sub-assemblies.
As someone who covets a reissue, I'm curious if anyone can opine on these statements. He also agreed that the viewfinder of the reissues is typically brighter that the existing examples of the originals
He also stated that some of the internal parts were plastic. Additionally he said that you can't interchange parts from one to the other.
Now, I'll grant there are statistical biases at work. Any original Nikon RF that had a weak internal part or other build problem was probably junked long ago and those that survive and continue to be used are the best of the breed. Regarding parts, I assumed the reissues where mechanically equivalent, but perhaps different materials are used for some parts and it's not ideal to mix and match with the original sub-assemblies.
As someone who covets a reissue, I'm curious if anyone can opine on these statements. He also agreed that the viewfinder of the reissues is typically brighter that the existing examples of the originals
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
i have a couple of S3 Milleniums. Only "weak" part I have found is the spring on the lens mount. It is soft, chrome plated brass, and it can distort easily (happened on one of them). I just raided my junk camera drawer for one from a Nikon S in a terminal stage.
Both of my S3's sees a lot of use and so far no problems. The chrome one has a bit of a squeek in the focus - but not more than some of the other Rf Nikon's that I have. The black one is the smoothest Rf that I have. Very quiet shutter and silky smooth advance. Its only rival is my "beaten to within an inch of destruction" SP - but that has probably taken 10-20 000 rolls to achieve!
Both of my S3's sees a lot of use and so far no problems. The chrome one has a bit of a squeek in the focus - but not more than some of the other Rf Nikon's that I have. The black one is the smoothest Rf that I have. Very quiet shutter and silky smooth advance. Its only rival is my "beaten to within an inch of destruction" SP - but that has probably taken 10-20 000 rolls to achieve!
VinceC
Veteran
I've run several hundred rolls through my S3-2000 and SP-2005. Both work just fine. There was a bit of plastic inside the originals ... I haven't taken the new ones very far apart but have interchanged front plates on the S3-2000 with an original S3 and have checked that the backs are interchangeable between old and new.
These are very useable cameras. However, I'm not sure anyone can build a camera as well as they were built back in the 1950s.
These are very useable cameras. However, I'm not sure anyone can build a camera as well as they were built back in the 1950s.
furcafe
Veteran
Assuming he's not your local repairman, you might want to ask someone like Pete Smith @ Fotocamera Repair (nikonsmith(at)aol.com) who works on Nikons for a living & has probably seen the insides of a few of the reproductions.
Like Tom A, I think the lens mount springs on the reproductions are weaker than the originals; they're @ least noticeably thinner. A few months after I bought it, my S3 2000 was inside a bag on a table when somebody knocked the bag onto the ground; although the bag provided some protection, the force of the impact on the lens seriously bent the spring (about a 1/4" out). I sent it to Pete Smith, who checked it for any other damage & bent the spring back to close to the original shape. I did some of my own additional bending to get it to my liking & it has been fine since (knock wood).
To be fair to the new cameras, though, I've been fortunate in that none of my original SPs has been subject to comparable trauma (AFAIK), so the hypothesis remains untested.
Like Tom A, I think the lens mount springs on the reproductions are weaker than the originals; they're @ least noticeably thinner. A few months after I bought it, my S3 2000 was inside a bag on a table when somebody knocked the bag onto the ground; although the bag provided some protection, the force of the impact on the lens seriously bent the spring (about a 1/4" out). I sent it to Pete Smith, who checked it for any other damage & bent the spring back to close to the original shape. I did some of my own additional bending to get it to my liking & it has been fine since (knock wood).
To be fair to the new cameras, though, I've been fortunate in that none of my original SPs has been subject to comparable trauma (AFAIK), so the hypothesis remains untested.
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nikon_sam
Shooter of Film...
BillBingham2
Registered User
There is another difference, at least between my S3-2000 and an original. The original has a Titanium shutter curtain, mine's cloth.
I have to agree with Fred, he's lying or terminally stupid and should not be trusted with anything you care about.
B2 (;->
I have to agree with Fred, he's lying or terminally stupid and should not be trusted with anything you care about.
B2 (;->
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
The re-issues from Nikon, The S3-2000 and the SP 2005 were done with little or no regard for cost! They even called in retired employees who worked on the originals to ensure that they were done right!
It was a pity that they didn't follow up with the titanium curtains though - but they can be exchanged.
Remaking the SP finder evidently almost stopped the SP 2005 and when they at last got it right - it turns out that the parts in it are not interchangeable with the original. One of the lensprisms is 0.10 mm thicker than the original.
The locking spring in the older cameras "feels" a bit stiffer, but the new one is softer. The old one could still be brass, but a different composition.
With mine it simple caught in the flange of a 35f1.8 and I had to apply some force to make it skip and it bent.
It was a pity that they didn't follow up with the titanium curtains though - but they can be exchanged.
Remaking the SP finder evidently almost stopped the SP 2005 and when they at last got it right - it turns out that the parts in it are not interchangeable with the original. One of the lensprisms is 0.10 mm thicker than the original.
The locking spring in the older cameras "feels" a bit stiffer, but the new one is softer. The old one could still be brass, but a different composition.
With mine it simple caught in the flange of a 35f1.8 and I had to apply some force to make it skip and it bent.
Bill, the original run of S3s have cloth shutters too. It was only the S3 "Olympics" released in 1965 that got titanium shutter curtains.
marcr1230 have you read the following two articles regarding the S3 and SP reissues?
HISTORY OF CAMERAS: Nikon S3 2000 Commemoration Model
HISTORY OF CAMERAS: Nikon SP Reissue Model
HISTORY OF CAMERAS: Nikon S3 2000 Commemoration Model
HISTORY OF CAMERAS: Nikon SP Reissue Model
My experience with the reissue Nikon RFs has been:
* external mount lenses do not work properly on some very early s/n S3 2000's (only 201*** and 202*** s/n range). On the one I owned that did this, external mount lenses attached ok, but could not be rotated through the entire focus range. AFAIK, Nikon realised this problem very early on, did a recall and fixed a lot of them, but some may still be out there.
* the focus helicoids on some reissue Nikon RFs tend to be squeaky. I've had several squeaky focus helicoids repaired/replaced by Nikon. After pulling apart and examining/comparing an SP 2005 helicoid and a vintage SP helicoid, my opinion is that the reissue helicoids are machined to much tighter tolerances than the vintage helicoids and as such any dust etc. in there will create a problem. The helicoid is designed to run dry, but some light helicoid grease for lubrication can make the helicoid action a lot smoother. However, I strongly advise against pulling apart a reissue focus helicoid because the tolerances are so tight that they're a real PITA to put back together. Instead, I advise to clean and lube any reissue focus helicoids as best you can without taking them apart.
* I once knocked the slow governor out of whack on my SP 2005, so only shutter speeds from 1/60 and up worked properly and 1/30 and lower were all over the place. The exact same thing can happen on a vintage Nikon RF (see this thread started by VinceC). Nikon fixed it for around $100. All that was required was an adjust. No parts were replaced.
Other than those small things, I've found them to be rock solid cameras!
on a different note, i spend last saturday morning shooting at the Tsukiji fish markets in Tokyo with a vintage SP and an SP 2005. While the focus patch on the vintage SP is almost as good, the SP 2005 finder was sooooo much clearer, and does not flare at all. Kind of like the difference between looking through expensive RayBan sunglasses and cheapo $5 plastic sunglasses (ok, that's not really a fair comparison but you get the idea). I plan on pulling out the finder in the vintage SP for a good clean.
* external mount lenses do not work properly on some very early s/n S3 2000's (only 201*** and 202*** s/n range). On the one I owned that did this, external mount lenses attached ok, but could not be rotated through the entire focus range. AFAIK, Nikon realised this problem very early on, did a recall and fixed a lot of them, but some may still be out there.
* the focus helicoids on some reissue Nikon RFs tend to be squeaky. I've had several squeaky focus helicoids repaired/replaced by Nikon. After pulling apart and examining/comparing an SP 2005 helicoid and a vintage SP helicoid, my opinion is that the reissue helicoids are machined to much tighter tolerances than the vintage helicoids and as such any dust etc. in there will create a problem. The helicoid is designed to run dry, but some light helicoid grease for lubrication can make the helicoid action a lot smoother. However, I strongly advise against pulling apart a reissue focus helicoid because the tolerances are so tight that they're a real PITA to put back together. Instead, I advise to clean and lube any reissue focus helicoids as best you can without taking them apart.
* I once knocked the slow governor out of whack on my SP 2005, so only shutter speeds from 1/60 and up worked properly and 1/30 and lower were all over the place. The exact same thing can happen on a vintage Nikon RF (see this thread started by VinceC). Nikon fixed it for around $100. All that was required was an adjust. No parts were replaced.
Other than those small things, I've found them to be rock solid cameras!
on a different note, i spend last saturday morning shooting at the Tsukiji fish markets in Tokyo with a vintage SP and an SP 2005. While the focus patch on the vintage SP is almost as good, the SP 2005 finder was sooooo much clearer, and does not flare at all. Kind of like the difference between looking through expensive RayBan sunglasses and cheapo $5 plastic sunglasses (ok, that's not really a fair comparison but you get the idea). I plan on pulling out the finder in the vintage SP for a good clean.
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marcr1230
Well-known
yes - I've read these links - they are great. I have started calling these "camera porn".
My local repairman had no ulterior motives , I'm sure. I'd guess at worst he just hasn't repaired many/any original SP's. or S3's
The links posted by jonmanjiro above don't really answer my question. let me rephrase:
it's clear from the links that the viewfinder is slightly different, in that some components had to be shaved to adjust for the better optical performance which caused ghosting. No matter what the cause, I was just curious, the viewfinder pieces are matched to each other in the reissue. so clearly it may be impossible to just drop in one prism or lens component from old to new or vice versa. my thought was - could you get an entire new viewfinder assembly and drop it in an old SP and would it work ? I'm reaching a bit here, but if you made 2,500 new SP's you presumably made spare parts - so could you refurbish old or broken SP's with new assemblies or parts. I have no idea if this would be economical, and I've never done any camera repair. But let's not quibble over details.
With respect to the thumb-wheel focusing gears, the S3 link states that it was difficult to get them to work as needed, but eventually they did, so again the question is, would they still work in an old S3 if you dropped them in ?
I would try answer these questions, if one of you would be kind enough to send me their SP reissue, and someone else perhaps an original SP
My local repairman had no ulterior motives , I'm sure. I'd guess at worst he just hasn't repaired many/any original SP's. or S3's
The links posted by jonmanjiro above don't really answer my question. let me rephrase:
it's clear from the links that the viewfinder is slightly different, in that some components had to be shaved to adjust for the better optical performance which caused ghosting. No matter what the cause, I was just curious, the viewfinder pieces are matched to each other in the reissue. so clearly it may be impossible to just drop in one prism or lens component from old to new or vice versa. my thought was - could you get an entire new viewfinder assembly and drop it in an old SP and would it work ? I'm reaching a bit here, but if you made 2,500 new SP's you presumably made spare parts - so could you refurbish old or broken SP's with new assemblies or parts. I have no idea if this would be economical, and I've never done any camera repair. But let's not quibble over details.
With respect to the thumb-wheel focusing gears, the S3 link states that it was difficult to get them to work as needed, but eventually they did, so again the question is, would they still work in an old S3 if you dropped them in ?
I would try answer these questions, if one of you would be kind enough to send me their SP reissue, and someone else perhaps an original SP
The viewfinder/RF mechanism in both the vintage Nikon RFs and reissue RFs is one unit, and is not meant to be dismantled.
Yes, I think it would. I might even try it just for fun!
Nikon has spare parts for the reissue RFs but their official policy is they do not sell them for repairing vintage RFs. I've asked about buying parts and was refused. However, I have seen a few vintage SP/S3's with a shiny chrome advance lever cap that's clearly a reissue part, so it seems that some reissue parts are getting used on vintage RFs.
I'm fairly certain that the initial problem was to do with the tighter tolerances in the reissue focus helicoids. The focus wheel rotates freely when the focus helicoid is removed, so the action is entirely dependent on the smoothness of the focus helicoid action.
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Just wanted to add that even though Nikon designed Nikon RF viewfinder/rangefinder mechanisms as a single unit, some repair places can disassemble and repair them. But I would not trust any repair place that has minimal experience with these cameras to work on one.
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
Also remember that when the original S3/SP's were made - Nikon, just like everyone else machined helicoils "by hand" - once done and matched, they were then "lapped" with fine grinding compound until smooth. The tolerances were tight - but nowhere as tight as what a modern CNC machine can do. The programs for helicoils will make a male/female part and number it for matching. Tolerances are measured in microns +/- 2-3 of them too. (Ok , take a human hair and start splitting it -when you have split it into one hundred perfect lengths you are getting close to these tolerances!). Things like temperature, humidity and the aforementioned speck of dust will affect it.
However the squeel seems to originate more from the helicoil rubbing against the front plate too. I filed it down and put some "graphite" in the helicoil and it is now quiet. On older cameras, this has probably been settled a long time ago simply by "wearing" them in.
However the squeel seems to originate more from the helicoil rubbing against the front plate too. I filed it down and put some "graphite" in the helicoil and it is now quiet. On older cameras, this has probably been settled a long time ago simply by "wearing" them in.
It would be interesting to know how much Nikon actually spent creating the re-issues...they couldn't possibly have made a profit...the cameras would have probably been $8-$10k...
I'm constantly amazed at the quality of the machining of older gear. I have an S2 helical that was made into a lens adapter for M bodies, and is silky smooth. My old Summarit-M has the best feel of any lens I've ever used; in that case, silky is simply to coarse of a word to describe it.
I'm constantly amazed at the quality of the machining of older gear. I have an S2 helical that was made into a lens adapter for M bodies, and is silky smooth. My old Summarit-M has the best feel of any lens I've ever used; in that case, silky is simply to coarse of a word to describe it.
marc, if so inclined perhaps you could furnish us with some details on the kinds of repairs your local camera repairman has performed on the reissue Nikon RFs. I for one am curious to learn more.
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VinceC
Veteran
I'd guess some of our forum members here are among the most active users of new and old Nikon rangefinders ("active users" of Nikon RF cameras constitute a tiny community). We're also a pretty hard-nosed lot. If there were any serious problems with these cameras, we'd be quick to spot them and quick to criticise.
Nikon RFs also are surrounded by quite a lot of baloney and nonsense. I've had so many experts over the years insist -- sometimes vehemently -- that Nikon cameras are screw-for-screw copies of Contaxes.
Nikon RFs also are surrounded by quite a lot of baloney and nonsense. I've had so many experts over the years insist -- sometimes vehemently -- that Nikon cameras are screw-for-screw copies of Contaxes.