How about 35mm movie lenses?

[Taipei-metro]

I am a cinematographer and I think this whole business of adapting cine lenses is a bit over the top.

In reality there are very few cine lenses made other than the currenlty produced Zeiss Ultra and Master Primes and the Cooke S4s that are really worth using for still photography.

The truth is that although cine lenses are made better mechanically to withstand constant use they are NOT sharper and better performers optically. In fact most of the lenses I have seen (and own) are noticeably less sharp and have much less contrast than even inexpensive optics like the Voigtlander LTM and Canon RF lenses. Because a 35mm cine image can be projected on a 15 meter screen and is watched by an audience sitting 15 to 20 meters away from that screen in a dark room, there is the illusion of sharpness even for a lens that doesn't resolve 60+ lp/mm.

The finest vintage cine lenses in my opinion are made by Zeiss and they in fact use the very same optical formulas as the famous lenses used on the old 35mm Contax Rangefinder still cameras. I own a 50mm f/1.5 Zeiss Sonnar and a 180mm Sonnar in Arriflex standard mount. They are both very good, but the exact same lenses most of you guys have heard of.

This guy's right.
I directed a 35mm feature a few years back, those big Zeiss lenses are all Arriflex bayonet mt., a stander lens is 28mm (shooting 1:1.85 aspect ratio, 4-perforration/ fram), I remember most of the lens are T1.4 ( not f-stop, T = true or transmission), a 28-280 T2.8 may weight up to 6 lbs or more, the cinematographer needs 2 assistants, big tripod, lens board and big lens hood, etc.
When shooting non-sync sound stuff, I remember my frugo cinematographer, Mr. Chang converts a Tamron 28mm f2.5 to the lighter workhorse 35mm Arrtfle 2C-II.
My movie did not make a cent profit in boxoffice, so I joint the one-movie-director club. Pick up my old still camera, as hollywood said...And the rest is history.

 

[x-ray]

JJW is correct about sharpness of cine lenses. I've done motion picture work as part of my studio services since the seventies and have picked frames from the original negatice film to enlarge for ads. The results are terrible. I have never seen a motion picture frame enlarged to 8x10 that was even close to acceptable. Cine lenses are built for speed and durability as JJW said. Anyway, a new set of Zeiss or Cook primes will cost you upward of six figures.

 

[zhang]

JJW is correct about sharpness of cine lenses. I've done motion picture work as part of my studio services since the seventies and have picked frames from the original negatice film to enlarge for ads. The results are terrible. I have never seen a motion picture frame enlarged to 8x10 that was even close to acceptable. Cine lenses are built for speed and durability as JJW said. Anyway, a new set of Zeiss or Cook primes will cost you upward of six figures.

Hello guys,

I am not suggesting going out of your way and spending many Ks for those movie lenses. Just in case you saw a super wideangle cine lens for a few bucks. It won't hurt and it is fun.

Here is an image I shot a couple of years ago with a C mount Zeiss HD 70/2.8 lens converted to M42 and used on a Canon 300D. The image quality is quite decent. It is at least not terrible. The same principle should also apply for a RD-1 I guess.

Zhang

 

[Taipei-metro]

Hello guys,

I am not suggesting going out of your way and spending many Ks for those movie lenses. Just in case you saw a super wideangle cine lens for a few bucks. It won't hurt and it is fun.

Here is an image I shot a couple of years ago with a C mount Zeiss HD 70/2.8 lens converted to M42 and used on a Canon 300D. The image quality is quite decent. It is at least not terrible. The same principle should also apply for a RD-1 I guess.

Zhang

Hi, Ni-hau..
I like your Fujica AZ-1, a beautiful machine and so many M42 mts around. I have an AX-1 and AX-3, a 28mm 2.8 Fujinar( made by, I believe Komine of Japan), 50 1.9 X-Fujinon, and one of my favorite EBC X-Fujinon 28/3.5, Fujica changed to bayonet mt. on X body.
16mm movie cameras, Aaton, Eclair, CP16, Arri, use C-mount, many mts to convert 35mm lens to C mt, my student film was shot w Eclair, with a 10mm, a 12-120mm Angenieux (french lens), a 50 1.4 Nikon and my favorite Nikon 180mm/2.8.
Standard lens is 14mm for Super-16, or 12mm for regular 16, so the 180mm becomes a 750mm equv in 35mm still term...intoxicationg images..
Ahh, I miss my film student days...I thougt I could be like Ang Lee; the first Taiwanese American to be nominated as best director ("Crouching Tiger", Academy Award), as the American said, " Sh_t happened!", I end up killing time on this forum waitting for next assignment...

 

[Taipei-metro]

Zhang,
OT/ now I'm on movies now...
I am a big Kurosawa fan, Yojimbo, Sanjuro, Hidden Fortress, Red Beard, 7 Samurais, Do-des Kaden, Dreams, August Rapsody( about Hiroshima Kenbatsu; A-bomb), Ran( Chaos )...
China's Zhang Yi-moe is on Kurosawa's tail, I love his "Not one Less" and "Chu-ju", when I watch these movie for the first time, I thought, Oh my God, this guy is GREAT, he is going after Kurosawa!
Zhang unfortunately wants an Oscar, because Ang lee who call Zhang "Senbi" ( respectful teacher) got one best Foreign Film Award( Crouching Tiger). Zhang's "Hero", "House of Flying Dagger" are flashy and suited for US audience (Japanese Sony produced).
Every time I watch "Not One Less", I couldn't hold myself, it's such a great movie. His later "Shanghai Triad", "To Live"" is also masterpiece.

 

[JJW]

Arri S or Standard Mount is 52mm from flange to focal plane for the 35mm cine cameras (Arri 2B and 2C). That gives you some room for mounting Standard Mount lenses on a still camera.

I am not sure if the 52mm F2FP is the same for the Arri 16S/M. I don't shoot 16mm cine. Arri Bayonet and PL mounts have longer F2FP distances.

Here is a pretty decent discussion of the various generations of Zeiss Cine lenses:

http://www.cinematechnic.com/resources/zeiss_cinematography_lens.html

Cinematechnic has a good section on the evolution of Arriflex movie cameras on the site. Have a look.

 

[zhang]

Hi, Ni-hau..
I like your Fujica AZ-1, a beautiful machine and so many M42 mts around. I have an AX-1 and AX-3, a 28mm 2.8 Fujinar( made by, I believe Komine of Japan), 50 1.9 X-Fujinon, and one of my favorite EBC X-Fujinon 28/3.5, Fujica changed to bayonet mt. on X body.
16mm movie cameras, Aaton, Eclair, CP16, Arri, use C-mount, many mts to convert 35mm lens to C mt, my student film was shot w Eclair, with a 10mm, a 12-120mm Angenieux (french lens), a 50 1.4 Nikon and my favorite Nikon 180mm/2.8.
Standard lens is 14mm for Super-16, or 12mm for regular 16, so the 180mm becomes a 750mm equv in 35mm still term...intoxicationg images..
Ahh, I miss my film student days...I thougt I could be like Ang Lee; the first Taiwanese American to be nominated as best director ("Crouching Tiger", Academy Award), as the American said, " Sh_t happened!", I end up killing time on this forum waitting for next assignment...

你好,台北导演,Hello director Taibei!

My profession has nothing to do with movie making, but I like to try gears. I have a very rare Chinese "copy?" of Eclair 16mm fast speed camera. Only 60 such cameras has been made until now. It is a prize item in my hardware collection.

Just tried another shot with the CZJ Tevidon 70/2.8 16mm HD lens with 300D. It is in fact a very sharp lens. Only auto level and no PS. And it is not a RAW image. It is not practical to use the 20/2 on a DLSR as it performs like a microscope objective.

Here is a resized full frame image and a 100% crop of a very small section.

Happy Chinese new year in advance!

Zhang

 

[Will]

China's Zhang Yi-moe is on Kurosawa's tail, I love his "Not one Less" and "Chu-ju", when I watch these movie for the first time, I thought, Oh my God, this guy is GREAT, he is going after Kurosawa!

This guy can be a very good photography professional if he decide to shot still instead of motion pictures.

Zhangs,

Nothing wrong with "Lens Hacking"...

Nothing wrong with picking up old stuffs and use it too..

I like to hacking part, but I am still in the early days (adapters, no conversion)...

Cheers




Will

 

[zhang]

Hi, Ni-hau..
I like your Fujica AZ-1, a beautiful machine and so many M42 mts around. I have an AX-1 and AX-3, a 28mm 2.8 Fujinar( made by, I believe Komine of Japan), 50 1.9 X-Fujinon, and one of my favorite EBC X-Fujinon 28/3.5, Fujica changed to bayonet mt. on X body.
16mm movie cameras, Aaton, Eclair, CP16, Arri, use C-mount, many mts to convert 35mm lens to C mt, my student film was shot w Eclair, with a 10mm, a 12-120mm Angenieux (french lens), a 50 1.4 Nikon and my favorite Nikon 180mm/2.8.
Standard lens is 14mm for Super-16, or 12mm for regular 16, so the 180mm becomes a 750mm equv in 35mm still term...intoxicationg images..
Ahh, I miss my film student days...I thougt I could be like Ang Lee; the first Taiwanese American to be nominated as best director ("Crouching Tiger", Academy Award), as the American said, " Sh_t happened!", I end up killing time on this forum waitting for next assignment...

Ni Hao Taipei,

Here are some images of China made cine equipment in my gears collection. I hope one day someone could actually use them to shoot movies.
The Arri S mount 25-80 zoom is a prototype made by a Beijing factory. The Red Flag is a popular spring wound silent 16mm movie camera, and the blue one is the rare high speed (144 frame/second) Chun Guang brand camera that is still being made today. You could try them for your next assignment for free!

Cheers,

 

[zhang]

This guy can be a very good photography professional if he decide to shot still instead of motion pictures.

Zhangs,

Nothing wrong with "Lens Hacking"...

Nothing wrong with picking up old stuffs and use it too..

I like to hacking part, but I am still in the early days (adapters, no conversion)...

Cheers




Will

Yes, indeed, I found many images in his movies very beautiful,and he has a good taste for beauty.

No,I don't think there is anything wrong with gears hacking. It could be a creative and fascinating experience.

How about these rocket launchers?

 

[Will]

Yes, indeed, I found many images in his movies very beautiful,and he has a good taste for beauty.

No,I don't think there is anything wrong with gears hacking. It could be a creative and fascinating experience.

How about these rocket launchers?

Hello Zhang,

Nice gears,

For the center piece, is it a tele lens (Russia 300mm f/4?) with a short lens on the other side of the bellow?

I know you can make telescope like that, and for Macro Photos, you backward mount a standard/wide lens on a short tele, but what's exactly is the center piece do? (forgive me poor english) Looking forward for your reply.

I think Director Zhang's "Hero" is the peak in terms of stage setting. Each stages with it's colour combination are so mind-blowing, but a director can't use it as a selling point forever, or maybe he can..

Cheers





Will

 

[zhang]

Hello Zhang,

Nice gears,

For the center piece, is it a tele lens (Russia 300mm f/4?) with a short lens on the other side of the bellow?

I know you can make telescope like that, and for Macro Photos, you backward mount a standard/wide lens on a short tele, but what's exactly is the center piece do? (forgive me poor english) Looking forward for your reply.

I think Director Zhang's "Hero" is the peak in terms of stage setting. Each stages with it's colour combination are so mind-blowing, but a director can't use it as a selling point forever, or maybe he can..

Cheers





Will

Hi Will,

I made these rocket "launchers" for fun. I will never use them.
I just have another idea. There are those 10mm-20mm wideangle lenses for DSLRs at very good prices. With a hacking of its mount to a M42 mount, These could also be used on a RD-1 with some more adaptors. I am not sure if the apertures can be set manually on these lenses.

I took another shot with the CZJ 70/2.8 with a Russian made LTM 2x teleconverter,another low cost and usefull accessary for the RD 1 or for any Leica rangefinder cameras, and used the combination as a macro lens. It is very useful for those insect pictures as the camera is still about 50-60mm away from the subject., and it performed like a 220/2.8 macro lens. From the 100% crop, you can see that these movie lenses could be very sharp.

Good luck,

Zhang

 

[Will]

I took another shot with the CZJ 70/2.8 with a Russian made LTM 2x teleconverter,another low cost and usefull accessary for the RD 1 or for any Leica rangefinder cameras, and used the combination as a macro lens. It is very useful for those insect pictures as the camera is still about 50-60mm away from the subject., and it performed like a 220/2.8 macro lens. From the 100% crop, you can see that these movie lenses could be very sharp.

Hi Zhang,

Thanks for posting shots!

Do you scale foucs for those shots?

Havn't see any CZJ movie lens in HK, but 135 and 120 lens are common here.

Are you in BJ?

Cheers






Will

 

[zhang]

Hi Zhang,

Thanks for posting shots!

Do you scale foucs for those shots?

Havn't see any CZJ movie lens in HK, but 135 and 120 lens are common here.

Are you in BJ?

Cheers






Will

Hi Will,

These are shot with a Canon 300D. The Zeiss 70/2.8 is a HD video lens, but surprisingly can be used on a 135 DLSR and cover the full rame. The 20/2 fast wideangle is a real bargain at the price for its quality. I assume these will perform just as fine on a digital rangefinder camera.

Yes, I am in Beijing. I can occasionally pick one or two of these interesting items here.

Cheers,

Zhang

 

[Taipei-metro]

"China's Zhang Yi-moe is on Kurosawa's tail, I love his "Not one Less" and "Chu-ju", when I watch these movie for the first time, I thought, Oh my God, this guy is GREAT, he is going after Kurosawa!"


Mighty Moe?

It's wonderful to find a Zhang Yi Mou enthusiast here too. I find his art films of the 1990s fascinating for his tender choreography of the cinematographic medium.

" His later "Shanghai Triad", "To Live"" is also masterpiece."

Hmm. If you enjoyed it, you might try finding Kleisowski's "La Double vie de Veronique" or the Tricolores: Bleu, Blanc, Rouge" trilogy. I don't know if the producers knew much of each others work; they share similar techniques, in the same way that a photographer can use various photographic tools. The work itself is distinctly separate in its European and Oriental idiom.

Has anyone here tried using 'oscilloscope' lenses? I gather these render more detail on enlargement than cine lenses (greater resolving power).

Thanks RJ,
Double Life of Veronica, Red, White, Blue. I've seen them few years ago, yeah good movies.
Many European directors are just GREAT, I don't know any other word to describe.
Emier Kustarica(Time of Gypises), Gilsepe Torratora(Star Maker), Jean p Jeunet(Amiely), Manchcvski( Befor the Rain, great film), Schlondorf( Tin Drum).
Russian dirctor Andrei Konchavovski( Run away Train; a Kurosawa screenplay) did several Hollywood films like "Inner Circle" is also great.

A Japanese director name Imamura Shohei( Vengence is Mine, Eel, Black Rain; about a young lady surviving Hiroshima A-bomb later to find out the radiation effect in her body gradually eating her up...), I Had a chance to meet him very briefly in Taipei when he was pitching a film project to a film production co. I worked at that time.
Imaging, a great director...like asking for money... I feel really really sad, it's a no-go.
His "Eel" won him best director in Canns 1997, everytime I watch "Eel", I wish I am the director, then I can die without regret. such a great movie.
Kurosawa died in 1998, his last film " Madadyo"(1993), won't be seen till 2000 in US. Lukas, Coppola fianaced his "Kagemusha", they visit Japan, standing behind Kurosawa when he was directing "Kagemusha". As you may have known, "Star Wars" story was based on his "Hidden Fortress".
Yojimbo, Sanjuro were money maker for Kurosawa, I watch them all the time. The one after these two movie was "Red Beard", a movie when he has the financial power. I study "Red Beard", couldn't understand why the man took a turn on sadness. Over 3 hours long, every scene needs to be carefully studied if one wish to be a Director.

 

[Will]

I don't know if the producers knew much of each others work; they share similar techniques, in the same way that a photographer can use various photographic tools. The work itself is distinctly separate in its European and Oriental idiom.

Has anyone here tried using 'oscilloscope' lenses? I gather these render more detail on enlargement than cine lenses (greater resolving power).

Grad to find that you enjoy chinese director's work, ever tried his earlier movies?

These are shot with a Canon 300D. The Zeiss 70/2.8 is a HD video lens, but surprisingly can be used on a 135 DLSR and cover the full rame. The 20/2 fast wideangle is a real bargain at the price for its quality. I assume these will perform just as fine on a digital rangefinder camera.

Yes, I am in Beijing. I can occasionally pick one or two of these interesting items here.

Sorry for the late reply, no internet for a week (or two!?). Finally settled in HK, rented a studio apartment, gonna look for a job after the Chinese New Year.

Zhang, guess what, Father gave me a Distagon 50mm f/4 (hasselblad), it is currently under cleaning. I am gonna stick it on my M this year (when my income arrives). View finder blockage will be as bad as a Canon 50mm f/0.95 (approxiately 50mm from the body's mount, 72mm in diameter on the lens' mount, taper toward the front). Now just need $ for the two adapters...

Take care for the Chinese New Year Zhang, and let's hope this year will be a profitable one (for all of us)...

Cheers





Will

 

[zhang xk]

.....
Zhang, guess what, Father gave me a Distagon 50mm f/4 (hasselblad), it is currently under cleaning. I am gonna stick it on my M this year (when my income arrives). View finder blockage will be as bad as a Canon 50mm f/0.95 (approxiately 50mm from the body's mount, 72mm in diameter on the lens' mount, taper toward the front). Now just need $ for the two adapters...

Take care for the Chinese New Year Zhang, and let's hope this year will be a profitable one (for all of us)...

Cheers





Will

Hi will,

I have all the CZJ MF lenses. These are high quality optics. The P6 mount 50mm/4 Zeiss Flektogon is about equal to a high quality 35mm normal lens for image quality. I tested it with many 35mm slr's normal lenses. I have all the adaptors to use them on a LTM camera.

I tried nother shot with the sine 35/T1.28 lens on a DLSR as a macro lens, and I think the image quality is excellent!

This is also a 100% crop of original image. Lens was stopped down to about F8 for greater DOF. It should perform well on a RD-1.

Cheers,

Zhang

 

[ZorkiKat]

你好张同志！

Nice to find you here! Excellent lens adaptation. Are you already shooting with an RD-1? Still finding a way to raise the $$$$ for an RD-1 or else wait for a cheaper version made for the masses.

I've converted my 300D/350D to full manual M42 lens use, even installing split-image screens in them. Now I long for the RF equivalent for all my M42 lenses...got a J-12, J-3, and I-61L/D itching to draw on silicon sensors...

Jay （叶同志）
马尼拉

 

[zhang xk]

你好张同志！

Nice to find you here! Excellent lens adaptation. Are you already shooting with an RD-1? Still finding a way to raise the $$$$ for an RD-1 or else wait for a cheaper version made for the masses.

I've converted my 300D/350D to full manual M42 lens use, even installing split-image screens in them. Now I long for the RF equivalent for all my M42 lenses...got a J-12, J-3, and I-61L/D itching to draw on silicon sensors...

Jay （叶同志）
马尼拉

叶同志,你好!!

Long time no see you. How are you?

I think I saw somewhere that you are hording 60+ those Russian Leicas. Congratulations!

The RD 1 is still too rich for my budget, and I am waiting for a "red" digital rangefnder at the price of <$300. I hope I could rent such a RD 1 for a couple of weeks and see if I really like it. I still use my 300D and like it.

Cheers,

Zhang

 

[ZorkiKat]

叶同志,你好!!

Long time no see you. How are you?

I think I saw somewhere that you are hording 60+ those Russian Leicas. Congratulations!

The RD 1 is still too rich for my budget, and I am waiting for a "red" digital rangefnder at the price of <$300. I hope I could rent such a RD 1 for a couple of weeks and see if I really like it. I still use my 300D and like it.

Cheers,

Zhang

张同志：

“东方红！” You need not look far- the "red" DRF should be coming from 中国 China. The Yasuhara was the camera which marked the renaissance of RFs- and the maker (before Cosina made the Voigtlaenders) looked east- or to the WEST since China is west of Japan - to China to have his camera made. I am certain that some Chinese 'capitalist' will pounce on the opportunity and make the digital RF for the masses. You already have the industries capable of producing this. All needed now is the great helmsman to steer the way to the right path...maybe they're waiting for you!

Jay