David Hughes
David Hughes
No photographer (or smartphone user) can possibly remember all the options.
A well-designed system allows the user to customize, as well as to find things quickly.
There is simply no reason for camera manufacturers to not improve the UI; it’s in their best interest to make their products as easy to use as possible. Seems like that would be a great way to differentiate one’s products against the brands still mired in decades-old menus.
One could even have a system that does offers a menu-based system and an app-based system and let the user choose their preference, or even a completely user-configurable system. One doesn’t speak to Siri if the situation isn’t appropriate; that doesn’t mean Apple doesn’t offer the feature; rather, they offer several options, and let the user decide what’s best.
That sounds like the old Minolta 7000i system; you opened a little door in the side aand pushed in a card that made it going into portrait mode and so on. Again it was in the days of film but I thought it was a good way of deciding without getting into a muddle.
Regards, David
PS and notice how all these sensible things vanished once digital took over.
David Hughes
David Hughes
Look at ebay or any other auction site and you'll soon realise that they bin the instruction books; it's rare to see a camera with a manual. (Sometimes I wonder if they bin the lens caps too... )
Regards, David
Sometimes people immediately throw out the box and anything they deem unnecessary... I keep all of this stuff for when I sell it later.
There have been app based systems before... the original Sony Nex had it. It sucked even worse! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxVX1-GGk3I
Ronald M
Veteran
Leica digital M is pretty minimal. Same as film + WB & iso.
Nikon DSLR is easy . Set dial to M. Front control wheel is aperture - rear is shutter.
now metering can be set in one of 4 or 6 ways, spot meter, center weighted, 3 D, . You never need to touch it again.
ISO is button on rear , hold and spin thumb wheel. Faster than changing film.
WB same as iso except different button.
The cheaper the camera, the more buried the items are.
Medium priced models have two saved modes so you can set one for indoor sports, one for land scapes for example, then just take off M and turn to save one 1 or 2 and old setting come back or start from scratch on M if you want. For example I use S 1 for indoor venue iso 6400, 1/125 @ 5.6, WB 3200.
When I went there I just turned to S1.
I will tell you the better the camera, the more simple to control.
Nikon DSLR is easy . Set dial to M. Front control wheel is aperture - rear is shutter.
now metering can be set in one of 4 or 6 ways, spot meter, center weighted, 3 D, . You never need to touch it again.
ISO is button on rear , hold and spin thumb wheel. Faster than changing film.
WB same as iso except different button.
The cheaper the camera, the more buried the items are.
Medium priced models have two saved modes so you can set one for indoor sports, one for land scapes for example, then just take off M and turn to save one 1 or 2 and old setting come back or start from scratch on M if you want. For example I use S 1 for indoor venue iso 6400, 1/125 @ 5.6, WB 3200.
When I went there I just turned to S1.
I will tell you the better the camera, the more simple to control.
shawn
Veteran
Almost every semi-serious digital camera has exposure compensation. And for many it is a dedicated dial on them. In this group it is the Leica's that is the hardest to use as you have to press and hold a button and spin a command dial.
Shawn
Attachments
shawn
Veteran
No photographer (or smartphone user) can possibly remember all the options.
A well-designed system allows the user to customize, as well as to find things quickly.
There is simply no reason for camera manufacturers to not improve the UI; it’s in their best interest to make their products as easy to use as possible. Seems like that would be a great way to differentiate one’s products against the brands still mired in decades-old menus.
One could even have a system that offers a menu-based system and an app-based system and let the user choose their preference, or even a completely user-configurable system. One doesn’t speak to Siri if the situation isn’t appropriate; that doesn’t mean Apple doesn’t offer the feature; rather, they offer several options, and let the user decide what’s best.
A menu based system does allow a user to find things quickly, if it is organized properly. See Sony vs. Fuji for example. It also lets people explore and learn that the camera might have more options than they realized.
The whole point of this thread is people saying that menus are too complex. Now we are going to have a menu system, a completely user configurable system and an app system in the same camera? And people won't find that complex? Esp. considering the amount of bugs that is going to bring over and the possibility for things to get set in one system that can't be changed in another and the confusion that will cause?
Learn the gear and how to make it work for you. If the gear can't be setup in a way that works for you explore other options.
Shawn
Out to Lunch
Ventor
Originally Posted by Out to Lunch 
The problem is that many 'film shooters' believe that a camera is a camera and never bother to read the manual of their brand new digital camera. Learn and adapt. As we speak, Leica and Fuji offer the best 'classic' camera design and feel. Cheers, OtL
Look at ebay or any other auction site and you'll soon realise that they bin the instruction books; it's rare to see a camera with a manual. (Sometimes I wonder if they bin the lens caps too... )
Old school thinking. All manuals can be found online. Cheers, OtL
The problem is that many 'film shooters' believe that a camera is a camera and never bother to read the manual of their brand new digital camera. Learn and adapt. As we speak, Leica and Fuji offer the best 'classic' camera design and feel. Cheers, OtL
Look at ebay or any other auction site and you'll soon realise that they bin the instruction books; it's rare to see a camera with a manual. (Sometimes I wonder if they bin the lens caps too... )
Old school thinking. All manuals can be found online. Cheers, OtL
Exactly. The reason why menus are so complex is because the cameras are so complex. Here we may like simplicity, but go to a site where people are always waiting for the next big thing and they want even more options. We are in the minority here. I'm just thankful that we have a few cameras that are not super annoying to work with.
Beemermark
Veteran
Agree with RonaldM on this one. My cameras -
-Nikon D750, rarely need to go into the menu system and when I do it's laid out it an understandable method.
-Fuji XPro2, rarely use it. Gave up on the complexity of menus, buttons, dials, etc. Bought a bought, in combination with the manual, I can usually change something (like WB) in about 20 minutes. To change ISO you need to lift and turn a dial, just like a film camera. A PIA on digital.
-Leica M9. Extremely rare to use the menus. And when I do I think there's maybe 6 at most. As pointed out, only downfall is setting exposure compensation. Not that hard but then it could be easier.
I think the Japanese marketing mentality is the more items that are changeable thee better the camera. I wish someone would come out with a way to DELETE menus. Can't believe anyone uses more than maybe 25% of the menu items.
shawn
Veteran
That is essentially what the My Menu function on your XPro2 does. Once you set the options you want on it any time you press the menu button you get that menu first. You are simplifying the options to those that you find useful to you while still giving you easy access to everything else if you need to go there.
Same thing with the Quick Menu. Set the options there to the ones you need and it becomes very easy to get to what you want.
Shawn
css9450
Veteran
I think the largest segment of us here on this forum prefers cameras that don't even have batteries!
css9450
Veteran
Exactly. Even the digital point-and-shoots I've used have exposure compensation. I am sure there are some exceptions; there always are.
Archlich
Well-known
Can't believe people are asking for apps on camera. Opening an app via touchscreen to configure your flash settings? One single app for video, or several? Does that make things any easier? What about the tactile response we love so much? And battery life?
Cameras don't have enough functions to be comparable to smartphones yet. All the menus are equivalent to the bloated "settings" on your phone.
IMO the amount of menu items isn't the primary concern. It's how they're organized and presented. The Leica Q is a prime example: it has very few options, three pages of unsorted, illogical mess that's unintuitive to use. Fortunately Leica finally realized and fixed it with MyMenu in the firmware released several years after launch and subsequently actual organized tabs on the Q2.
Cameras don't have enough functions to be comparable to smartphones yet. All the menus are equivalent to the bloated "settings" on your phone.
IMO the amount of menu items isn't the primary concern. It's how they're organized and presented. The Leica Q is a prime example: it has very few options, three pages of unsorted, illogical mess that's unintuitive to use. Fortunately Leica finally realized and fixed it with MyMenu in the firmware released several years after launch and subsequently actual organized tabs on the Q2.
shawn
Veteran
Haven't used the Q or Q2 but totally agree about how they are organized and presented and then would also just add how they are manipulated too. For example, on almost every digital camera if you go into the menus and change an option you can then half press the shutter button to jump out of the menus and that change sticks. On the M240 it jumps out of the menus but depending upon where you are may not have saved the setting.
Shawn
I gave some examples of how menus could be ditched in favor of something nearly everyone agrees is a better way; hundreds of millions of smartphone users. I did not propose that those examples are the only solutions.
Improving an archaic menu-based user interface by simply allowing the user to move items into a custom menu is a step, but it’s hardly innovative or modern, or intuitive.
Custom menus are acceptable but user options of voice control, a smartphone-style UI allowing users to jump directly to a setting instead of fifty (plus or minus) button presses that require the user to already know where the feature is located, or perhaps hundreds of presses if they don’t, is not?
Yes, I had a NEX with the app interface; it sucked, just like all Sony interfaces have.
No one is suggesting to implement things poorly, like they did.
It would be very simple to have an app-based system that, if the user preferred, would simply have an app that did nothing but present a menu.
Just throwing out ideas!
Yes, improving a crap menu system is a good idea, but why stop there?
I firmly believe that the first camera manufacturer that offers a truly modern intuitive UI, and markets that advantage, would increase market share by a good margin. As a designer and developer of computer hardware, I suppose that it’s not surprising I’d have that opinion.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
I don’t know of any smartphones where one has to drill down thru pages of text menus, ala digital cameras. If there any any, they aren’t really that ‘smart,’ I suppose.
Such a system is not by any means a modern UI.
Remember the old T9 text input system? “Text on 9 keys?” Digital camera menus aren’t quite that tedious, but they get pretty close.
Even the Preferences app in an iPhone can have menus with a nearly arbitrary level of depth in them. A lot of that is up to the app developer, and many of them are just as enlightened about UI as camera engineers...
G
Even the Preferences app in an iPhone can have menus with a nearly arbitrary level of depth in them. A lot of that is up to the app developer, and many of them are just as enlightened about UI as camera engineers...
No doubt...that is why there is a search option at the top of the Settings app.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
No photographer (or smartphone user) can possibly remember all the options.
A well-designed system allows the user to customize, as well as to find things quickly.
There is simply no reason for camera manufacturers to not improve the UI; it’s in their best interest to make their products as easy to use as possible. Seems like that would be a great way to differentiate one’s products against the brands still mired in decades-old menus.
...
I remember all the options I need to remember on several different cameras without any difficulty. I picked up my E-M1 again after not touching it for a couple of years, input all my long-ago defined standard customizations, and remember now exactly how to use it perfectly. It's not really that hard.
Please give an example of something with a modern UI as you imagine it. It's hard to debate between the menu driven UI and a "modern UI" without understanding what you are promoting. Given that I have seven digital cameras all with very different UI systems that are up to seventeen years old, and all are quite usable with the appropriate amount of learning time and practice, it's hard to figure what is classic and what is modern by anything you've said so far.
G
Godfrey
somewhat colored
No doubt...that is why there is a search option at the top of the Settings app.
Which cannot find what you're looking for, it can only find specific strings and keywords. Menu conceptual organization is still pretty important.
G