robert blu
quiet photographer
Never, best Leica ever -
Switching between a Nikon and a Fuji camera is like switching from an Android phone to an Iphone. Here's another example. My Leica M4 manual (like most film cameras) is very thin and mostly contains information that every camera user that ever used a camera already knows. My Leica M9 manual is 99 pages long but, again, most users can figure it out without opening the manual. The XPro-2 manual is 177 pages, contains the most basic information, and requires the user to buy a book to figure out what some of the options do. One issue is menu names have changed from previous models (not uncommon). Many menu names aren't even intuitively obvious as to what they do.
My wife's D-109 has a 301 pages manual !!! LOL !
I think as you mentioned one point which makes the study of the manual less intuitive is to understans what the options do and how they interact (overwrite) each other. This is probably due to aproximate translations.
Dogman
Veteran
My takeaway from this is that different people perceive menus and controls differently.
Could that be why so many options are offered by camera makers?
Could that be why so many options are offered by camera makers?
Ricoh
Well-known
“How about a digital body with minimal menus”
Leica do it very well, just a light touch and mostly self explanatory without wading through 200 odd pages like some cameras I could mention.
Leica do it very well, just a light touch and mostly self explanatory without wading through 200 odd pages like some cameras I could mention.
css9450
Veteran
shawn
Veteran
If the display changes press the display button.
Leica is pretty tame in this regard because the cameras have far less featured in comparison.
Shawn
Axel
singleshooter
I was successful configuring every digicam for minimal use of display.
By the way it is a little work with reading the f... manual.
But wasn´t / isn´t it the same with every new and unknown tool?
By the way it is a little work with reading the f... manual.
But wasn´t / isn´t it the same with every new and unknown tool?
True; similarly there is a (albeit very small) percentage of computer users who prefer a CLI (command line interface), over a GUI (graphical user interface.)
David Hughes
David Hughes
Agreed and I think they have worked out that most of their users are experienced photographers...
This is a good thing; think about all those weird articles you read now and then where it is obvious that a spelling checker has been used by someone who doesn't recognise all the correct spellings offered.
Regards, David
Well, yes, I can name several situations where getting the shot I wanted, meant far too many time-wasting button presses traveling through the menus, searching for options that I was quite aware of, but had not used before.
These situations *can and do* happen out in the field, no matter how much preparation, manual-reading, and practice one does in advance.
Ricoh
Well-known
Possibly a better solution to all this digital menu nonsense is to shoot film and then digitise. I find the Plustek and Silverfast very easy to use.
Hey, those programs have too many menu options as well!!
Archlich
Well-known
I don't think it's a fair comparison.
With the M4 you only have access to focus and exposure. With the X-Pro2 (and many other modern digital cameras) you can also fine tune metering (which requires an extra meter for the M4), white balance (which requires you affix a set of filters onto the lens of your M4), various image quality options (half a darkroom), video (no one use it but imagine a super 8 camera), and numerous technical bits of this and that (like bracketing). You can also review the image, do basic editing (darkroom again) and upload and share (requires scanning with the M4).
So the equivalent of the X-Pro2's manual you're really talking about is the M4 manual plus various photo instruction books about filter, exposure, film stock, darkroom (analog and digital), different photography tricks and basic video shooting.
The point is, what used to require many gears and procedures to produce, today's cameras can do in one go. All these functions, packed into one camera, enable common people to take adequate pictures after finish reading one thick manual instead of a thin one plus many thick instruction books.
In case people want to have it really simple, today's manuals often start with a "quick guide" section of 3-4 pages letting you forget about all the "advanced features" and just shoot away, like you can always do with a X-Pro2.
rcubed
Canadian
Epson R-D1! I wish they would make a updated one and keep the same ethos.
css9450
Veteran
Even the M4 was unnecessarily complicated to that guy who shot the first photo from his Paris balcony back in 1826....
Evergreen States
Francine Pierre Saget (they/them)
A lot of the bulk of camera manuals might be due to having been printed in multiple languages.
My only digital cameras are two Fuji X-Pro1s. I have them set up so that I hardly use the menus. I honestly only go into the menus to format the card and the newer X-Pro models allow you to do that with a button shortcut. I only shoot RAW, so no need to keep adjusting white balance or JPEG settings.
My only digital cameras are two Fuji X-Pro1s. I have them set up so that I hardly use the menus. I honestly only go into the menus to format the card and the newer X-Pro models allow you to do that with a button shortcut. I only shoot RAW, so no need to keep adjusting white balance or JPEG settings.
First step is to logically organize/simplify the system no matter if it is text-based or graphics-based...not surprisingly, everyone seems to agree on this. 
With quality touchscreen hardware, even if the menus remained as they are (just text), things would be greatly simplified.
Here is an example on my Fuji X-H1, which has a hybrid touch system. There is a touch screen, but it's not nearly as precise or refined as a smartphone touchscreen. And it's not full-featured; the menu system can't be operated by touch.
However, the touchscreen DOES work to enter copyright info, for example.
Here is a simple example comparing the various methods of entering copyright data:
• Button presses only
• Button presses plus touchscreen
• Touchscreen only (hypothetical; not currently possible.)
If the touchscreen is not used at all, just the directional buttons, entering copyright data from the top menu requires:
• 22 button presses to reach the ENTER COPYRIGHT INFO screen.
• 49 more button presses to type in this text: HELLO THERE -- actual copyright info would be more detailed than this example, of course. (Maybe someone else is more efficient than I am and could save a couple of button presses with the text entry.)
Total: 71 button presses.
Alternatively, using the touchscreen to enter the text data:
• It still takes 22 button presses to reach the ENTER COPYRIGHT INFO screen.
• But it only takes 11 keystrokes to enter the HELLO THERE text.
Total: 33 presses or keystrokes.
If the touchscreen were fully implemented on this camera, so it worked with the menu system, it would be much, much faster:
• Press Menu button
• Touch Wrench icon
• Touch SAVE DATA SETUP
• Touch COPYRIGHT INFO
• Touch ENTER COPYRIGHT INFO
• Type 11 keystrokes HELLO THERE
Total: 16 button presses or keystrokes.
Less than a quarter of the effort of button-only system, and less than half the effort of a hybrid system.
It must also be pointed out that this example totals the MINIMUM count of button presses & keystrokes; it does not account for errors. Going down the wrong menu path can waste a lot of time and add significantly to the count, to the point where it's easier to just exit the menu system and start over again...a fully implemented touch system greatly reduces the time spent recovering from these errors.
Admittedly, entering copyright info is not something that is required that often, but it does illustrate how time consuming the usual button interface can be.
Modern digital cameras have an amazing amount of functionality, no doubt more functions would actually be used if it weren't so tedious to do so...
With quality touchscreen hardware, even if the menus remained as they are (just text), things would be greatly simplified.
Here is an example on my Fuji X-H1, which has a hybrid touch system. There is a touch screen, but it's not nearly as precise or refined as a smartphone touchscreen. And it's not full-featured; the menu system can't be operated by touch.
However, the touchscreen DOES work to enter copyright info, for example.
Here is a simple example comparing the various methods of entering copyright data:
• Button presses only
• Button presses plus touchscreen
• Touchscreen only (hypothetical; not currently possible.)
If the touchscreen is not used at all, just the directional buttons, entering copyright data from the top menu requires:
• 22 button presses to reach the ENTER COPYRIGHT INFO screen.
• 49 more button presses to type in this text: HELLO THERE -- actual copyright info would be more detailed than this example, of course.
(Maybe someone else is more efficient than I am and could save a couple of button presses with the text entry.)Total: 71 button presses.
Alternatively, using the touchscreen to enter the text data:
• It still takes 22 button presses to reach the ENTER COPYRIGHT INFO screen.
• But it only takes 11 keystrokes to enter the HELLO THERE text.
Total: 33 presses or keystrokes.
If the touchscreen were fully implemented on this camera, so it worked with the menu system, it would be much, much faster:
• Press Menu button
• Touch Wrench icon
• Touch SAVE DATA SETUP
• Touch COPYRIGHT INFO
• Touch ENTER COPYRIGHT INFO
• Type 11 keystrokes HELLO THERE
Total: 16 button presses or keystrokes.
Less than a quarter of the effort of button-only system, and less than half the effort of a hybrid system.
It must also be pointed out that this example totals the MINIMUM count of button presses & keystrokes; it does not account for errors. Going down the wrong menu path can waste a lot of time and add significantly to the count, to the point where it's easier to just exit the menu system and start over again...a fully implemented touch system greatly reduces the time spent recovering from these errors.
Admittedly, entering copyright info is not something that is required that often, but it does illustrate how time consuming the usual button interface can be.
Modern digital cameras have an amazing amount of functionality, no doubt more functions would actually be used if it weren't so tedious to do so...
Godfrey
somewhat colored
Why would I want to enter copyright information on the camera when my image processing system adds it for me automatically whenever I import my raw files into the image processing system? I have no need of such things being added in the camera at exposure time, I never hand out photographs without rendering and finishing them first.
It's things like that that make using the menu system annoying ... but there's no need to to do them for vast majority of users, AND something like this is something you likely do just ONCE in the life of the camera. Why waste time redesigning the control-UI system to make edge case, one time use things easy when you could design the system to make the things you actually have to use frequently very easy to learn and do.
I'm convinced it really much more a matter of proper command organization than "needing" a touch screen or an alternative UI paradigm, or anything else. On all seven of my cameras, including the ferociously complex Olympus E-M1, the most I ever need to enter a menu for once the camera is configured properly for us is likely once per session, and that's two/three steps at most. The rest of the time, I pick up the camera, flip the power switch, and go making photographs. I think, on my Light L1, I've gone into the menus once in the past five weeks to turn on the self timer for one session (and that was tap on the touch screen, tap on the timer icon 3 seconds, and tap to close the menu, all of 1 second's work).
As with anything else, getting the balance of control UI and ergonomics right is the key, not one or another control paradigm. A touch tone telephone from 1972 still works just as well in terms of control UI as it did then.
G
It's things like that that make using the menu system annoying ... but there's no need to to do them for vast majority of users, AND something like this is something you likely do just ONCE in the life of the camera. Why waste time redesigning the control-UI system to make edge case, one time use things easy when you could design the system to make the things you actually have to use frequently very easy to learn and do.
I'm convinced it really much more a matter of proper command organization than "needing" a touch screen or an alternative UI paradigm, or anything else. On all seven of my cameras, including the ferociously complex Olympus E-M1, the most I ever need to enter a menu for once the camera is configured properly for us is likely once per session, and that's two/three steps at most. The rest of the time, I pick up the camera, flip the power switch, and go making photographs. I think, on my Light L1, I've gone into the menus once in the past five weeks to turn on the self timer for one session (and that was tap on the touch screen, tap on the timer icon 3 seconds, and tap to close the menu, all of 1 second's work).
As with anything else, getting the balance of control UI and ergonomics right is the key, not one or another control paradigm. A touch tone telephone from 1972 still works just as well in terms of control UI as it did then.
G
It's just an EXAMPLE that illustrates how much time and effort is needlessly wasted on button presses...
Geeze. As usual, entirely missing the point...
Did you see the part where 22 button presses became 5 touches to get to the same location? This is leaving the menu system as-is (i.e., not very well organized.)
There are untold number of functions that could save similar amounts (or more) effort...not to mention significantly less time recovering from going down the wrong menu path...
Geeze. As usual, entirely missing the point...
Did you see the part where 22 button presses became 5 touches to get to the same location? This is leaving the menu system as-is (i.e., not very well organized.)
There are untold number of functions that could save similar amounts (or more) effort...not to mention significantly less time recovering from going down the wrong menu path...
shawn
Veteran
Totally would love to see an updated R-D1 too. But the R-D1 LCD menu is pretty awful. Rear panel buttons are all icon based and the menu is weird. No matter how hard I look I can't find the metering options, auto focus settings, video recording options or connectivity.
To go into the main menu you have to play a picture first and then get into the menu. The rotary aspect of it sort of makes sense based on their trying to use a rewind knob as a control input but the layout inside is fairly strange. Of course, I just shoot it in RAW so my screen is always flipped around and never change anything beyond ISO. The hard controls with the external dials were great for what they were but shooting RAW I don't bother with changing quality or WB anyway. Really just ISO on the dial.
I could do the same thing with my X100F or my old X Pro 2 as well. And the settings I do change on the Fuji's were all mapped to hard buttons anyway so no menu diving.
Shawn
shawn
Veteran
First step is to logically organize/simplify the system no matter if it is text-based or graphics-based...not surprisingly, everyone seems to agree on this.
With quality touchscreen hardware, even if the menus remained as they are (just text), things would be greatly simplified.
Here is an example on my Fuji X-H1, which has a hybrid touch system. There is a touch screen, but it's not nearly as precise or refined as a smartphone touchscreen. And it's not full-featured; the menu system can't be operated by touch.
However, the touchscreen DOES work to enter copyright info, for example.
Here is a simple example comparing the various methods of entering copyright data:
• Button presses only
• Button presses plus touchscreen
• Touchscreen only (hypothetical; not currently possible.)
If the touchscreen is not used at all, just the directional buttons, entering copyright data from the top menu requires:
• 22 button presses to reach the ENTER COPYRIGHT INFO screen.
• 49 more button presses to type in this text: HELLO THERE -- actual copyright info would be more detailed than this example, of course.
Total: 71 button presses.
Alternatively, using the touchscreen to enter the text data:
• It still takes 22 button presses to reach the ENTER COPYRIGHT INFO screen.
• But it only takes 11 keystrokes to enter the HELLO THERE text.
Total: 33 presses or keystrokes.
If the touchscreen were fully implemented on this camera, so it worked with the menu system, it would be much, much faster:
• Press Menu button
• Touch Wrench icon
• Touch SAVE DATA SETUP
• Touch COPYRIGHT INFO
• Touch ENTER COPYRIGHT INFO
• Type 11 keystrokes HELLO THERE
Total: 16 button presses or keystrokes.
Less than a quarter of the effort of button-only system, and less than half the effort of a hybrid system.
It must also be pointed out that this example totals the MINIMUM count of button presses & keystrokes; it does not account for errors. Going down the wrong menu path can waste a lot of time and add significantly to the count, to the point where it's easier to just exit the menu system and start over again...a fully implemented touch system greatly reduces the time spent recovering from these errors.
Admittedly, entering copyright info is not something that is required that often, but it does illustrate how time consuming the usual button interface can be.
Modern digital cameras have an amazing amount of functionality, no doubt more functions would actually be used if it weren't so tedious to do so...
So really, you aren't saying a menu is bad. You just want a different method of stepping through it with a touch screen. That makes sense to me as long as it isn't the only way of going through the menu and that the touchscreen can be shut off. The times I'm going through the menu I am usually doing that through the viewfinder.
Shawn