Koolzakukumba
Real men use B+W
A couple of weeks ago, I got a lot of sound advice when I asked if I could get a flavour of what Leica photography is like with a CL. At the end of the day, after using a borrowed M4, I didn't like the experience too much and decided to put off plans to buy a Leica.
However, as a confirmed slr user, I've been having a cautious look at Leica slrs and the prices seem quite reasonable. I've figured out that I can get an R6 and 50mm Summicron for about the same as an M6 body. That raises a few questions: is the R6 as well-built as an M (suspect it isn't), is the Summicron R on a par with the rangefinder equivalent, is the R6 viewfinder the best, i.e brightest and easiest to focus, of the R line up (not interested in the R8) and how might it compare with the Olympus OM1 or Pentax MX viewfinder for those people who have both.
I'm not too hung up on the R6 and would consider anything from an R3 onwards as long as the viewfinder is as good as my OM1's. I might end up not buying an R either but I just fancy trying out the Summicron and the way Leicas hold their prices I wouldn't lose much should I decide to sell it on.
Again, any help/advice would be very much appreciated.
Bruce
However, as a confirmed slr user, I've been having a cautious look at Leica slrs and the prices seem quite reasonable. I've figured out that I can get an R6 and 50mm Summicron for about the same as an M6 body. That raises a few questions: is the R6 as well-built as an M (suspect it isn't), is the Summicron R on a par with the rangefinder equivalent, is the R6 viewfinder the best, i.e brightest and easiest to focus, of the R line up (not interested in the R8) and how might it compare with the Olympus OM1 or Pentax MX viewfinder for those people who have both.
I'm not too hung up on the R6 and would consider anything from an R3 onwards as long as the viewfinder is as good as my OM1's. I might end up not buying an R either but I just fancy trying out the Summicron and the way Leicas hold their prices I wouldn't lose much should I decide to sell it on.
Again, any help/advice would be very much appreciated.
Bruce
Juno
Rangefinder shooter
If youve got an OM1 why bother with an R6 or any other Leica slr? Youll spend hundreds of pounds just getting exactly the same results youre getting right now with your Olympus.
ferider
Veteran
There is very few SLR viewfinders that can compete with the OM1. Maybe a classic Nikon. Or an OM with Beattie screen 
Roland.
Roland.
Joop van Heijgen
Established
There is very few SLR viewfinders that can compete with the OM1. Maybe a classic Nikon. Or an OM with Beattie screen
Roland.
"is the R6 as well-built as an M (suspect it isn't"
Only the Leicaflex SL(2) have the well-built quality of the M camera!
The viewfinder of the Leicaflexes can easy compete the viewfinder of the OM-1
Probably the Leicaflex SL 2 have the best SLR viewfinder ever made!:angel:
The R6 is a nice camera, but the OM-1 is also a nice camera...
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Koolzakukumba
Real men use B+W
You'll not get an arguement from me on this one, Juno! Of course, you're dead right. There's no logical or rational reason other than that I want to have a go with an R and Summicron. I can just about afford it, I'm not hurting anybody and it's a bit of fun - so why the hell not!
What I do need to know is which of the R's has the best viewfinder other than the old Leicaflex models which I don't like the look of. And I'd hate to get, say, an R3 only to discover that I would have been just as well off getting a Minolta XE-1/7/5/whatever.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
If you get a Leica SLR, you're getting it for the lenses not the bodies (which are all, in my opinion, not as fast or easy to operate for candid work as a Nikon F2, F3, or F4 or an Olympus OM-1 or OM-4). I have shot with a Leica R4 and hated the body, though it seemed solidly made. The viewfinder is about the same brightness as an OM-1 but not as big. My OM-4T with the Olympus 2-13 screen is a lot easier to focus. The Summicron lens, however, was great. It is very sharp and has better Bokeh than any of my Olympus 50's. If you have the $$ the Summicron R is a nice 50 and is probably worth putting up with the body.
querstrommotor
Member
try to help you with your question:
Beneth the classic Leicaflex with maybe the brightest finder ever made, the last 2 R bodies have the brightest finder in the R-Clas - that is the R6.2 and the R7.
Both cameras are nearly twins, the R7 is an electronic cam with all automatic features beneath their also full manual operation mode, you have also integral and spot metering (Spot metering system only in manual and AE), you have a mirror up rlease and a lightened aperture scale, wich is nice, when you shoot in bad light situations.
The R7 is the follow up cam of the R5 and the last classic electronic R - it is very well build and stable.
The R6.2 is the follow up of the R6 and has all the Features of the R7, I mentioned above - lacks of course all the automatic stuff....
You have a full mechanical cam, and in opposite of the R6 you get the 1/2000 sec , the mirror up system and the lightened aperture scale together with the bright finder.
Both bodies are very well made, maybe the 6.2 is a little bit in the culture of the Leicaflex....
Metering Systems are very good.
The most interesting lenses are:
16mm
19mm Elmarit
35mm Cron and Lux
50mm Cron and Lux
80mm Lux
180mm ASPH
The 80mm ist a dream Lens and has nearly the Style of the Lux 75mm M - mybe the best nuy in the System - maybe...
The 180 1:2,0 ASPH is a breathtaking lens, you will hardly find anything nearly equal on the market.
The 35mm Cron and Lux as also the 50mm Cron and Lux are nearly compareable to the M System.
Why nearly???
As a matter of construction the SLR lense-design is a strong retrofocus design, because you have the mirror in that system.....
Another reason for nearly the same quality and not the exact quality is the fact, that Leica had much more succes with the M-Cameras, so that some designs are a little bit older...sometimes not a bad thing;-))))
All in all you get a fantastic optical quality, maybe one of the best in the whole SLR Market (but no AF!!!!!) - and thats maybe the strongest argument against a Nikon or even a OM1 (by the way, I love the Classic OM System...)
Ekki
Beneth the classic Leicaflex with maybe the brightest finder ever made, the last 2 R bodies have the brightest finder in the R-Clas - that is the R6.2 and the R7.
Both cameras are nearly twins, the R7 is an electronic cam with all automatic features beneath their also full manual operation mode, you have also integral and spot metering (Spot metering system only in manual and AE), you have a mirror up rlease and a lightened aperture scale, wich is nice, when you shoot in bad light situations.
The R7 is the follow up cam of the R5 and the last classic electronic R - it is very well build and stable.
The R6.2 is the follow up of the R6 and has all the Features of the R7, I mentioned above - lacks of course all the automatic stuff....
You have a full mechanical cam, and in opposite of the R6 you get the 1/2000 sec , the mirror up system and the lightened aperture scale together with the bright finder.
Both bodies are very well made, maybe the 6.2 is a little bit in the culture of the Leicaflex....
Metering Systems are very good.
The most interesting lenses are:
16mm
19mm Elmarit
35mm Cron and Lux
50mm Cron and Lux
80mm Lux
180mm ASPH
The 80mm ist a dream Lens and has nearly the Style of the Lux 75mm M - mybe the best nuy in the System - maybe...
The 180 1:2,0 ASPH is a breathtaking lens, you will hardly find anything nearly equal on the market.
The 35mm Cron and Lux as also the 50mm Cron and Lux are nearly compareable to the M System.
Why nearly???
As a matter of construction the SLR lense-design is a strong retrofocus design, because you have the mirror in that system.....
Another reason for nearly the same quality and not the exact quality is the fact, that Leica had much more succes with the M-Cameras, so that some designs are a little bit older...sometimes not a bad thing;-))))
All in all you get a fantastic optical quality, maybe one of the best in the whole SLR Market (but no AF!!!!!) - and thats maybe the strongest argument against a Nikon or even a OM1 (by the way, I love the Classic OM System...)
Ekki
Koolzakukumba
Real men use B+W
Great answer, Ekki. Thanks for the info.
Dfin
Well-known
Hate to play devils advocate here,but are not all Leica slr`s from R3 to R7, Minolta clones? Don`t believe me? Ask your friendly repair man( especially R3 ) and compare same era Minolta`s with Leica slr`s.
rlouzan
Well-known
Leicaflex SL
querstrommotor
Member
Some words to the clone storry (Minolta)
True is, that the R3 and the R4 (with all their variants) were made in cooperation with Minolta.
Leica used their electronic know how, but Leica modified it. So the R3 is a Minolta/Leica mixture.
Withe the R4 Leica started to choose their own way, with the success, that the first R4´s had electronic problems....
After the separation between Leica and Minolta, Leica started to redesign the R series on their own.
The first model was the R5, without any Minolta help.
The R6 and the R6.2 is a complete Leica design, because these cameras are full mechanical.
Also the R7 is a complete re-design of the R5, now the electronic parts are highliy integrated, so we have a digital controll of all the electronic features of the cam.
The brad new electronoc in the R7 needed a little bit more space(TTL flash system), that is the reason, why the body of the R7 is a little bit higher (larger) as the other R´s.
If you see a pic, you will recognize, that under the Lens to the bottom of the cam they build the case a little bit larger...
Another thing is, that Leica used with teir R-series cams a couple of parts from third party companies.
What I mean is, that the shutter is not a Leica construction, and that was one of the reasons, why they stopped one day the R 6.2 production, because they can´t get the sutterparts anymore (but all these R cams are still rapirable!!!)
Nevertheless - the R series cams, and most of them the R7 and the R6.2 are fantastic photografic tools!!!
If you want to by an analog MF SLR, you will see, that there is not much on the market, which will be ranked over the last classic R generation.
If you want to have a small body, you can delete the F-Nikons and also the last MF Canons from your list.
What you will find on your list is than:
Olympus OM3, OM4 - great cameras, I love the OM3, a full mechanical cam with spot and multi spot metering system, but you have to use the zuiko lenses, and thats the point - beneath the 1,2 50mm there is no lense, which you would prefer more than the Leica glass.
Than you will find the Nikon FM2/FE2 on your list - you get maybe the best shutter in that camera class, but there is no spot metering, no mirror up system.....but you can connect the bodies to a very wide range of AI glass - and there you will find also some great lenses, as the 85mm 1:1,4, the 105mm, the 80-200 Zoom and so on.
With Pentax and Minolta you are far away from the haptic quality of a Nikon FM/FE or a Leica R - what is left...???
The only camera system which is in that class will be Contax - they have a little bit the same attitude than the Leica R system - you have great Zeiss lenses and also fantastic bodies, also a full mechanical one.
But you might have the problem to find a repair man, especially when you have trouble with some electronic parts...
So, most MF SLR fans end up with Leica or Nikon...
As I pointed out in my first R-statement, you´ll get a rock solid, small body with spot and integral metering system, with the possibility to store your lightmesurement, with a mirror up system (you will need a second cable release - you don´t need the Leica-Glocke;-))), with illuminated aperture Scale, time scale and other information in the Finder, a very bright finder, a viewfindershutter, when you work with a tripod, DX system, depth of field lever (very nice handling), a big and ergonomic aperture-time ring, when yo work in manual mode, TTL and TTL Flash metering, 1/2000 shortest shutterspeed, very easy correction of ASA, self timer, diopter wheel for the finder, plug for studio flash light system, winder or motordrive connection, and with the R7 programm mode with shift, apperture and time mode and manual, apperture and manual you can combine with integral or spot.....
I Think that is everything a professional MF SLR should have and a lot more - all packed in a very little body - it is only a little bit bigger than an M7.
The handling is a dream and the built quality is typical Leica!!
And if you shoot a rangefinder from Leica you can easily switch to the R cam for real telephoto or macro without having a new hndling-concept - everything is familiar...
If you like Leica glass, than you are in SLR heaven with these small cameras - just the old standard zoom lenses are not top quality (35-79 and 28-70 - first made by Minolta, second by Tokina) and the 24mm Elmarit, which is also an old minolta design (not bad, but not on the level of the rest...).
The wide-angle lenses - 15mm and 19mm, the Super Angulon 21mm, the elmarit 28 and the cron and lux 35mm are fantastic.
The 15mm has nearly no distortion - a dream to have a steady horizon on the picture....
There are also fantastic PC Lenses from Schneider in the system....
Than you will find the 60mm and the 100 mm Apo Macro - both a one of the absolut top macro lenses (to tell the truth I don´t know any better;-))))
The standard lenses are all a dream!!!
The 80mm Lux is one of my favourites - it is outstanding...
The 180 and 250mm tele lenses are also outstanding...
Also the new modular telephoto designs are all on the highest Level - check it out on flickr - a lot of nature photographers use the modular tele system, and if you like shooting birds or animals (I am not interested....;-)) the reachable quality is absolut stunning!!!!!
And it was never so cheap to jump on the Leica SLR train than today - so do it and be happy
Yours Ekki
True is, that the R3 and the R4 (with all their variants) were made in cooperation with Minolta.
Leica used their electronic know how, but Leica modified it. So the R3 is a Minolta/Leica mixture.
Withe the R4 Leica started to choose their own way, with the success, that the first R4´s had electronic problems....
After the separation between Leica and Minolta, Leica started to redesign the R series on their own.
The first model was the R5, without any Minolta help.
The R6 and the R6.2 is a complete Leica design, because these cameras are full mechanical.
Also the R7 is a complete re-design of the R5, now the electronic parts are highliy integrated, so we have a digital controll of all the electronic features of the cam.
The brad new electronoc in the R7 needed a little bit more space(TTL flash system), that is the reason, why the body of the R7 is a little bit higher (larger) as the other R´s.
If you see a pic, you will recognize, that under the Lens to the bottom of the cam they build the case a little bit larger...
Another thing is, that Leica used with teir R-series cams a couple of parts from third party companies.
What I mean is, that the shutter is not a Leica construction, and that was one of the reasons, why they stopped one day the R 6.2 production, because they can´t get the sutterparts anymore (but all these R cams are still rapirable!!!)
Nevertheless - the R series cams, and most of them the R7 and the R6.2 are fantastic photografic tools!!!
If you want to by an analog MF SLR, you will see, that there is not much on the market, which will be ranked over the last classic R generation.
If you want to have a small body, you can delete the F-Nikons and also the last MF Canons from your list.
What you will find on your list is than:
Olympus OM3, OM4 - great cameras, I love the OM3, a full mechanical cam with spot and multi spot metering system, but you have to use the zuiko lenses, and thats the point - beneath the 1,2 50mm there is no lense, which you would prefer more than the Leica glass.
Than you will find the Nikon FM2/FE2 on your list - you get maybe the best shutter in that camera class, but there is no spot metering, no mirror up system.....but you can connect the bodies to a very wide range of AI glass - and there you will find also some great lenses, as the 85mm 1:1,4, the 105mm, the 80-200 Zoom and so on.
With Pentax and Minolta you are far away from the haptic quality of a Nikon FM/FE or a Leica R - what is left...???
The only camera system which is in that class will be Contax - they have a little bit the same attitude than the Leica R system - you have great Zeiss lenses and also fantastic bodies, also a full mechanical one.
But you might have the problem to find a repair man, especially when you have trouble with some electronic parts...
So, most MF SLR fans end up with Leica or Nikon...
As I pointed out in my first R-statement, you´ll get a rock solid, small body with spot and integral metering system, with the possibility to store your lightmesurement, with a mirror up system (you will need a second cable release - you don´t need the Leica-Glocke;-))), with illuminated aperture Scale, time scale and other information in the Finder, a very bright finder, a viewfindershutter, when you work with a tripod, DX system, depth of field lever (very nice handling), a big and ergonomic aperture-time ring, when yo work in manual mode, TTL and TTL Flash metering, 1/2000 shortest shutterspeed, very easy correction of ASA, self timer, diopter wheel for the finder, plug for studio flash light system, winder or motordrive connection, and with the R7 programm mode with shift, apperture and time mode and manual, apperture and manual you can combine with integral or spot.....
I Think that is everything a professional MF SLR should have and a lot more - all packed in a very little body - it is only a little bit bigger than an M7.
The handling is a dream and the built quality is typical Leica!!
And if you shoot a rangefinder from Leica you can easily switch to the R cam for real telephoto or macro without having a new hndling-concept - everything is familiar...
If you like Leica glass, than you are in SLR heaven with these small cameras - just the old standard zoom lenses are not top quality (35-79 and 28-70 - first made by Minolta, second by Tokina) and the 24mm Elmarit, which is also an old minolta design (not bad, but not on the level of the rest...).
The wide-angle lenses - 15mm and 19mm, the Super Angulon 21mm, the elmarit 28 and the cron and lux 35mm are fantastic.
The 15mm has nearly no distortion - a dream to have a steady horizon on the picture....
There are also fantastic PC Lenses from Schneider in the system....
Than you will find the 60mm and the 100 mm Apo Macro - both a one of the absolut top macro lenses (to tell the truth I don´t know any better;-))))
The standard lenses are all a dream!!!
The 80mm Lux is one of my favourites - it is outstanding...
The 180 and 250mm tele lenses are also outstanding...
Also the new modular telephoto designs are all on the highest Level - check it out on flickr - a lot of nature photographers use the modular tele system, and if you like shooting birds or animals (I am not interested....;-)) the reachable quality is absolut stunning!!!!!
And it was never so cheap to jump on the Leica SLR train than today - so do it and be happy
Yours Ekki
nobbylon
Veteran
I had a couple of R bodies, R4 & R8. I sold them both in favour of the OM1's I have. The R4 because I didn't like the meter readout and I found it a hassle to use. The R8 because it was too big, fantastic and beautifully made though. Both viewfinders where near identical in brightness which surprised me with a gap of near 20yrs between them. R4's finder slightly bigger, another surprise. Both not in the same class size wise compared to the OM's. The R8 did however focus better than any other camera i've used. It just seemed to snap in or out of focus, great. The lenses are what they are. I only had 3, a 35, 50 and a 60 macro. When I look back at the shots I did they do seem to have better color and smoothness to them. Did it justify the huge price difference between similar OM optics? for me no. I'd rather put Leica money into the M's.
If I where to choose another R though it would be an R6 or R6.2 and the 60 macro as a standard lens. I like the meter readout, similar to M's and that 60 is a storming lens. My 'one' that got away!
On the Leicaflex viewfinder issue. I really don't get it. I've looked through and didn't rate it against my OM1 !
If I where to choose another R though it would be an R6 or R6.2 and the 60 macro as a standard lens. I like the meter readout, similar to M's and that 60 is a storming lens. My 'one' that got away!
On the Leicaflex viewfinder issue. I really don't get it. I've looked through and didn't rate it against my OM1 !
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
If I have to have a Leica SLR, I'll go for the Leicaflex SL or SL 2 if I can afford/justify it.
Agree with Ekki about the Contax. Get a hold of a Contax 137 MA or RTS II. More affordable nowadays than the Leica R and most importantly, Zeiss T* Planar, Sonnar, Distagon lenses are now within your grasp.
Don't worry about the electronics or repair, Mark Hama told me once he can still CLA these cameras. Not cheap, but not too expensive either.
Having said all that, OM-1 will be my favorite always.
Agree with Ekki about the Contax. Get a hold of a Contax 137 MA or RTS II. More affordable nowadays than the Leica R and most importantly, Zeiss T* Planar, Sonnar, Distagon lenses are now within your grasp.
Don't worry about the electronics or repair, Mark Hama told me once he can still CLA these cameras. Not cheap, but not too expensive either.
Having said all that, OM-1 will be my favorite always.