How difficult is it to transition from AF to M10 rangefinder?

[Archiver]

Very interesting. Matches my experience with the school basketball. Is it that the Leica has you looking, with a camera, not looking through a camera? With right eye to the finder maybe that’s part of it.

That might be something to do with it, but I shoot about 50/50 with both eyes open or one eye closed with most cameras unless I'm looking at the LCD screen. Thing is, I don't get these results when shooting with a DSLR, both eyes open or not, so it isn't an optical viewfinder situation, either. It might be something to do with seeing the scene through the RF window, and being able to adjust composition intuitively based on what is outside the framelines, as cliched as it might seem.

 

[Richard G]

That might be something to do with it, but I shoot about 50/50 with both eyes open or one eye closed with most cameras unless I'm looking at the LCD screen. Thing is, I don't get these results when shooting with a DSLR, both eyes open or not, so it isn't an optical viewfinder situation, either. It might be something to do with seeing the scene through the RF window, and being able to adjust composition intuitively based on what is outside the framelines, as cliched as it might seem.

If I use the Pentax Spotmatic with 55 I was given, which I have done very rarely, I’m seduced by the view and composition in the viewfinder and I take some different pictures based on that vivid immediate experience. When I use the IIIf and 50 with external finder, I won’t use the camera VF, and often not the RF and the view through the SBOOI is good but ordinary, and just for the framing. It’s a bit like flicking between EVF and optical with the X100: in the former you’re immersed in the view provided, in the latter there’s no immersion, nothing of influence, between you and the subject. Which aligns with your point: the optical is seamless in influence with the outside of the frame and what’s outside of the whole VF and the whole camera.

 

[AndyCapp]

I thought going to rangefinder would be more complicated. Getting used to center-weighed exposure seems more of a problem.
Does M9 lock the exposure if you take a reading off your main subject and keep the shutter half way pressed to recompose like the old time SLRs? I have only shot full-manual this far.

Edit: It does exactly that unless you have set the "Advance" to "soft". I just did not press deep enough.
My backlight shots were seriously under as I did not understand how center-weighted the meter is.
I'll figure it all out, eventually.

 

[Freakscene]

I thought going to rangefinder would be more complicated. Getting used to center-weighed exposure seems more of a problem.
Does M9 lock the exposure if you take a reading off your main subject and keep the shutter half way pressed to recompose like the old time SLRs? I have only shot full-manual this far.

Edit: It does exactly that unless you have set the "Advance" to "soft". I just did not press deep enough.
My backlight shots were seriously under as I did not understand how center-weighted the meter is.
I'll figure it all out, eventually.

The meter is not really centre weighted. It uses an average reading of the reflectance across the pale strip on the front of the shutter. The meter cell also has a different colour sensitivity to the sensor. It works via a metering cell with a lens, so it does meter the edges less than the centre but the pattern is nothing like a traditional centre weighted meter. The shape of the metering stripe makes the camera meter very differently sometimes in portrait mode if you hold it hand up or hand down, or shoot hot shoe up or down in landscape orientation. I often shoot quickly from all sorts of odd holding positions with the camera and learned this the hard way.

The histogram is very helpful but the M9 calculates the histogram you see from a .jpg virtual file even if you are shooting raw, so it can be misleading too.

The M9 meter takes some getting used to and in my view is not as predictable as a film era SLR centre weighted meter. Backlit photos need a lot of adjustment and often if the backlighting is strong, it needs more adjustment than the +/-3 stops offers in AE. Manual can work better.

Marty

 

[AndyCapp]

The M9 meter takes some getting used to and in my view is not as predictable as a film era SLR centre weighted meter. Backlit photos need a lot of adjustment and often if the backlighting is strong, it needs more adjustment than the +/-3 stops offers in AE. Manual can work better.
Marty

OM-2 had two eyes staring at the shutter or the film surface. The Minolta patent enabled TTL flash with Olympus flashes. In their short-lived autofocus 707 they even had high-speed flash. OM-2n had a manual 1/125sec in case you ran low on top of a mountain. Mr. Yoshihisa Maitani was an engineering genius as was Mr. Tsutomu Matano, or "Mr. Miata" also.
I am glad you told me the quirky exposure is not only due my clumsiness.
Now that I figured out the exposure lock, I will try if it is one solution.

Martti

 

[Archiver]

I thought going to rangefinder would be more complicated. Getting used to center-weighed exposure seems more of a problem.
Does M9 lock the exposure if you take a reading off your main subject and keep the shutter half way pressed to recompose like the old time SLRs? I have only shot full-manual this far.

Edit: It does exactly that unless you have set the "Advance" to "soft". I just did not press deep enough.
My backlight shots were seriously under as I did not understand how center-weighted the meter is.
I'll figure it all out, eventually.

M9 metering was probably the biggest adjustment I needed to make. I think of it as a sort of wide centre metering, so it meters on whatever is in the centre of the composition. My usual practice is to aim at what I want properly exposed, half press and hold to lock exposure, then recompose and shoot. Focusing comes before or after depending on how much difference is between the exposure target and the scene; my usual habit is to focus first.

For evenly lit subjects it is fine to meter exposure on the centre of the scene, focus, recompose and shoot.

For scenes where the subject is very dark compared with the rest of the scene, you can either meter on the visual overlap of the subject and bright area, or meter for the subject and equalize exposure in post.

For a bright subject and dark background, meter on the subject and equalize the background in post if desired.

 

[Godfrey]

....
One other point, Leica’s should need rangefinder adjustment every year but some people do seem to get this.

I've heard this many times over the years. My personal experience working with Leica RF cameras since 1972ish is that they only need rangefinder adjustment when they've been bumped hard or dropped, or have just gotten so old and dirty that the mechanism has become sticky and inconsistent in operation due to coagulated lubricants and dust.

My M4-2 had a case of the latter affliction, lost in a sock drawer for 20+ years it seemed. My M10-R had obviously been bumped hard. None of my other Leica Ms have ever required an adjustment at all, at least in the time I bought them, used them and sold them. I had several of them for over a decade's worth of use.

I'll see how this works out as the future comes along. I bought the M10-M new in 2022, the M10-R used in 2023, and the M4-2 in 2012. The M4-2 and M10-R were serviced for their focusing system issues immediately after I bought them. No problems at all with the M10-M. There have been no issues to have serviced since I started using them, and I intend to be using them for a good long time. 🙂

G

 

[sojournerphoto]

I've heard this many times over the years. My personal experience working with Leica RF cameras since 1972ish is that they only need rangefinder adjustment when they've been bumped hard or dropped, or have just gotten so old and dirty that the mechanism has become sticky and inconsistent in operation due to coagulated lubricants and dust.

My M4-2 had a case of the latter affliction, lost in a sock drawer for 20+ years it seemed. My M10-R had obviously been bumped hard. None of my other Leica Ms have ever required an adjustment at all, at least in the time I bought them, used them and sold them. I had several of them for over a decade's worth of use.

I'll see how this works out as the future comes along. I bought the M10-M new in 2022, the M10-R used in 2023, and the M4-2 in 2012. The M4-2 and M10-R were serviced for their focusing system issues immediately after I bought them. No problems at all with the M10-M. There have been no issues to have serviced since I started using them, and I intend to be using them for a good long time. 🙂

G

My post was meant to say ‘shouldn’t need rangefinder adjustment…’

Agree, mine have been fine - even dropped an MA the other week🙁

 

[Richard G]

The meter is not really centre weighted. It uses an average reading of the reflectance across the pale strip on the front of the shutter. The meter cell also has a different colour sensitivity to the sensor. It works via a metering cell with a lens, so it does meter the edges less than the centre but the pattern is nothing like a traditional centre weighted meter. The shape of the metering stripe makes the camera meter very differently sometimes in portrait mode if you hold it hand up or hand down, or shoot hot shoe up or down in landscape orientation. I often shoot quickly from all sorts of odd holding positions with the camera and learned this the hard way.

The histogram is very helpful but the M9 calculates the histogram you see from a .jpg virtual file even if you are shooting raw, so it can be misleading too.

The M9 meter takes some getting used to and in my view is not as predictable as a film era SLR centre weighted meter. Backlit photos need a lot of adjustment and often if the backlighting is strong, it needs more adjustment than the +/-3 stops offers in AE. Manual can work better.

Marty

Wow. Never thought about that sloping shutter reflective stripe in portrait mode. I use half press, but often go manual as you suggest. I also find that 28 and wider the M9 always takes too much account of the sky. Compared to the M6, a lot thinking is required with the M9. Using incident readings from light meters or Sunny 16 frees the mind of too much exposure thinking. Retuning to the M6 some years ago I thought, how can I trust this reflective light meter system. Amazingly the M6 gets it right nearly every time. I presume the M7 must be so much better than the M9 for automatic exposure.

 

[Freakscene]

I've heard this many times over the years. My personal experience working with Leica RF cameras since 1972ish is that they only need rangefinder adjustment when they've been bumped hard or dropped, or have just gotten so old and dirty that the mechanism has become sticky and inconsistent in operation due to coagulated lubricants and dust.

My M4-2 had a case of the latter affliction, lost in a sock drawer for 20+ years it seemed. My M10-R had obviously been bumped hard. None of my other Leica Ms have ever required an adjustment at all, at least in the time I bought them, used them and sold them. I had several of them for over a decade's worth of use.

I'll see how this works out as the future comes along. I bought the M10-M new in 2022, the M10-R used in 2023, and the M4-2 in 2012. The M4-2 and M10-R were serviced for their focusing system issues immediately after I bought them. No problems at all with the M10-M. There have been no issues to have serviced since I started using them, and I intend to be using them for a good long time. 🙂

G

You are an exception - in climate, pattern of gentleness and use and probably a range of other things. My M10M is about to go in for its second service since 2020. With my 50/1.4 ASPH it is now out by more than 50mm when focused using the rangefinder at or near close focus.

The best thing anyone can do is check. Focus with the RF and check using live view. Different? Get it serviced.

Wow. Never thought about that sloping shutter reflective stripe in portrait mode. I use half press, but often go manual as you suggest. I also find that 28 and wider the M9 always takes too much account of the sky. Compared to the M6, a lot thinking is required with the M9. Using incident readings from light meters or Sunny 16 frees the mind of too much exposure thinking. Retuning to the M6 some years ago I thought, how can I trust this reflective light meter system. Amazingly the M6 gets it right nearly every time. I presume the M7 must be so much better than the M9 for automatic exposure.

The M7 did work better for me than any pre-M11 digital M. But a lot of that was the plasticity of film-exposure as well as the meter.

 

[Godfrey]

I usually am an exception when it comes to me and machines. Machines like me, and usually just do what they're supposed to. 😉

Personally, I have had no problems with the M9, M-P240, M-D262, M10-M, and M10-R with respect to exposure metering. It's been too long since I had an M6 series M to remember (I've had my M4-2 since 2012, had a couple of M4-P and M4 in the decade before that, and sold my last M6TTL in 2004 or so... I had a couple of other M6s before that), but I don't recall any difficulties with them either. I just use the meter in the camera the way I expect it should be used, and have gotten excellent exposures with very few exceptions, and those exceptions are usually my fault. I really don't think about it at all.

I suspect that many users never read the manual to see how Leica says the metering should be used ... I always read the manual cover to cover a few times, and do what it says exactly until I find things I want the camera to do differently. I don't know any other reason why the metering would work fine for me and not for other people. I do make exposure adjustments on the fly by eye and experience, however, using either EV Comp or manual metering, depending on the situation.

G

 

[AndyCapp]

M9 metering was probably the biggest adjustment I needed to make. I think of it as a sort of wide centre metering, so it meters on whatever is in the centre of the composition. My usual practice is to aim at what I want properly exposed, half press and hold to lock exposure, then recompose and shoot. Focusing comes before or after depending on how much difference is between the exposure target and the scene; my usual habit is to focus first.

For evenly lit subjects it is fine to meter exposure on the centre of the scene, focus, recompose and shoot.

For scenes where the subject is very dark compared with the rest of the scene, you can either meter on the visual overlap of the subject and bright area, or meter for the subject and equalize exposure in post.

For a bright subject and dark background, meter on the subject and equalize the background in post if desired.

I am on page 99 on David Taylor's M9 Expanded Guide. Now I set the Exposure Compensation to the big wheel on the right.
The dialed amount pops up in the viewfinder!
Next, I'll find out more about Bracketing.

 

[AndyCapp]

M9 metering was probably the biggest adjustment I needed to make. I think of it as a sort of wide centre metering, so it meters on whatever is in the centre of the composition. My usual practice is to aim at what I want properly exposed, half press and hold to lock exposure, then recompose and shoot. Focusing comes before or after depending on how much difference is between the exposure target and the scene; my usual habit is to focus first.

For evenly lit subjects it is fine to meter exposure on the centre of the scene, focus, recompose and shoot.

For scenes where the subject is very dark compared with the rest of the scene, you can either meter on the visual overlap of the subject and bright area, or meter for the subject and equalize exposure in post.

For a bright subject and dark background, meter on the subject and equalize the background in post if desired.

The Lightroom Classic Mask feature allows for some surprising things.

 

[maddoc]

I would highly recommend borrowing a M Leica before buying one simply to test if RF focusing works for you. Until about ten yrs ago, I had no problems focusing my Noctilux in dim light, getting many photos with the subject in focus at f/1.0. After my eye surgeries I am glad that I can focus a 50mm Summicron reliably at f/2.0 in rather good light. The problem is the missing diopter in all the M Leicas. I bought one of the adjustable diopters from eBay to test if the RF patch becomes crispier and indeed it does but the drawback is that due the added length of the diopter even the 50 mm frame lines become hard to see. I brought my M-A to my ophthalmologist and asked him what to do. He recommended to either do nothing because the available screw-in diopter all don't fit my prescription or to get an order made diopter. Order-made diopter for Leica can be obtained from MAP CAMERA here in Japan and cost about JPY67000 but I am not sure if I am willing to spend 10% of the camera price for a diopter.

 

[Richard G]

OM-2 had two eyes staring at the shutter or the film surface. The Minolta patent enabled TTL flash with Olympus flashes. In their short-lived autofocus 707 they even had high-speed flash. OM-2n had a manual 1/125sec in case you ran low on top of a mountain. Mr. Yoshihisa Maitani was an engineering genius as was Mr. Tsutomu Matano, or "Mr. Miata" also.
I am glad you told me the quirky exposure is not only due my clumsiness.
Now that I figured out the exposure lock, I will try if it is one solution.

Martti

Another genius aspect of the OM2n is the automatic exposure down to 1/60th I think, if camera is switched to OFF. They thought of everything.

 

[AndyCapp]

Today I tried to get sharp pictures with the Nokton 75mm f/1.5 with M9 RF on full opening and a monopod.
I could not get acceptable focus until I stopped down to 4.0.
Are these fast lenses to be used with LV only or can somebody really get the 4-something centimeters of DoF correctly placed with the RF?
Is it something that can be learned? Could extra diopters help?

 

[boojum]

Today I tried to get sharp pictures with the Nokton 75mm f/1.5 with M9 RF on full opening and a monopod.
I could not get acceptable focus until I stopped down to 4.0.
Are these fast lenses to be used with LV only or can somebody really get the 4-something centimeters of DoF correctly placed with the RF?
Is it something that can be learned? Could extra diopters help?

I have the Light Lens Lab 1.4 diopter on my M9 and it helps. But I have no idea how bad your eyes are or how good you are at focusing.

 

[sojournerphoto]

Today I tried to get sharp pictures with the Nokton 75mm f/1.5 with M9 RF on full opening and a monopod.
I could not get acceptable focus until I stopped down to 4.0.
Are these fast lenses to be used with LV only or can somebody really get the 4-something centimeters of DoF correctly placed with the RF?
Is it something that can be learned? Could extra diopters help?

I could focus the 135/4 and 90/2 accurately on my M9. The 75/1.5 would likely be slightly harder but not much.

On my MA I can reliably focus a couple of 50/1.1s, but slowly and carefully if close and wide open.

There is some ‘hit and miss’ - if you/subject sways for example and just focus imprecision. Closer is, of course harder. It also needs a well calibrated body and lens.

I’ve got a 7Artisans 75/1.5 waiting for me to calibrate it. When I get around to it I’ll report back.

Keep trying - eyesight could be an issue but it’s often just practice

 

[kshapero]

Learn to pre focus and you're 90% there.

 

[AndyCapp]

Thank you for giving me hope. On M10 there's the LV and the Visoflex. Then, what's the advantage over a Sony 7c?
Of course, "wearing" a Leica sends a message...