How does one make sure of proper shutter speed?

[MIkhail]

I figure this is a proper forum for this question.

When people sell used cameras it's almost a common phrase "shutter speeds are accurate", or "shutter works as it should" or "all speeds sound correct".
But how does one actually know?
I mean, I for one cannot tell the difference between 1/250 and 1/60 by listening (and I have been shooting since 2003). Nor do I consider that a necessary knowledge anyway.
But there has to be a better way.

Being an engineer by profession, I can think of several:
1) High speed camera recording the motions of shutter from the back of a camera in question
2) Microphone recording the sound and then user measures the difference between amplitude peaks.

Both methods are flawed in my mind.
First one - what about Leica IIIf and likes? How do you get behind the lens of this one?
Second - Tried, microphone with my computer using "audacity" app, not clear enough to know the exact numbers.

Any thoughts?

 

[Kent]

For those who can read German (or want to suffer Google Translate):

https://retrocameracs.wordpress.com/2015/03/11/verschlussgenauigkeit-analoger-kameras/

 

[MIkhail]

There is no way to tell with the ear or eye. There is a machine for it, which I have seen in use in person and it was fascinating.

Even though the speeds were not precise on my M6, according to the machine, the technician said it would not be noticeable when using print film.

For print film (especially B/W) sure.
But for slide film, I figure that's a different story. Or with something as finicky as Ektar.

 

[MIkhail]

For those who can read German (or want to suffer Google Translate):

https://retrocameracs.wordpress.com/2015/03/11/verschlussgenauigkeit-analoger-kameras/

Thanks,
I have seen this app before and I am planning on trying it.
But I was wondering is there another, one of those "tried and true" ways from the time before apps

 

[benmacphoto]

But how does one actually know?

I'd say by using a light meter, taking a photo at those settings.
And seeing if it comes out properly exposed.
Not to mention testing higher speeds for capping which would show on the image.
And slow speeds that hang open too long over exposing an image.

For me the only real way to know a shutter speed is accurate, is to actually test it to make an image.

 

[shimokita]

Here is a link to one approach...

http://www.kyphoto.com/classics/shutterspeedtester.html

 

[Timmyjoe]

I can definitely hear a difference between 1/250th and 1/60th. Can't calibrate a shutter by ear, but you can definitely hear the difference between speeds that far apart.

There are a number of shutter testers out there. The one I use most is a light sensor that plugs into an old iPhone 4S that has a shutter speed app. Bought it years ago and can't quite remember from whom.

I've also used a Nikon 1 V2 with a Micro lens, set to 30 fps to test shutters, although it was more for determining shutter bounce than actual shutter speed.

Bounce

Best,
-Tim

 

[brennanphotoguy]

I use a machine at work that tells me.

 

[Roger Hicks]

For years I've had a small ZTS shutter speed tester (no longer in production, alas) and it's very revealing. There are two important lessons. First, shutters very rarely run fast. Second, if you shoot neg, extra exposure is generally to the good anyway. I have a Pentax which gives gorgeous tonality. Mostly this is because (as I discovered when I tested it), most speeds are about a stop slow...

Cheers,

R.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

Then I'm taking pictures I'm not listening to the shutter. Then I'm repairing cameras, I'm not only listening, but some of them are also visible. And I could hear the difference between 1/60 and 1/250 at the cameras I have repaired.
Have you ever seen Leica trained technicians listening to the speeds of Leica? I have seen it done by them.
Any way, if you have problems with "shutter speeds are accurate", or "shutter works as it should" or "all speeds sound correct" here is your thing :
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Shutter-Spe...677422?hash=item33c80dc3ee:g:Ze4AAOSw-0xYYhRa

 

[jsrockit]

When people sell used cameras it's almost a common phrase "shutter speeds are accurate", or "shutter works as it should" or "all speeds sound correct".
But how does one actually know?

I think you can generally know from using the camera (or at least approximate). Also, the slower shutter speeds are generally the ones that are most off and you can definitely tell when a 1 second shutter speed is off. You can also test it by looking at a camera with an electronic shutter that is known to be accurate and comparing.

 

[Roger Hicks]

. . . Also, the slower shutter speeds are generally the ones that are most off . . .

Not in my experience (including actually measuring them). The fast ones are usually at least 1/3 stop slow, often 1/2 stop slow, and sometimes 2/3 stop slow or more. Yes, slow speed trains gum up, but unless they actually hang up for long enough that you can't hear the mechanism whirring, they are usually more accurate than 1/250 and up.

Cheers,

R.

 

[zuiko85]

Not having the fancy electronic testing equipment I do a exposure test.
1. Short load Ilford Pan F from bulk.
2. Pick cloudy day
3. Camera on tripod, pick scene with moderate contrast.
4. Sequence:
1/1000 @ f2
1/500 @ f2.8
1/250 @ f4
1/125 @ f5.6
1/60 @ f8
1/30 @ f11
1/15 @ f16

Develop normally. You are not looking for perfect exposure, just consistency across all frames. There will be some variation, but not a lot if shutter is close to accurate.

By the way, I agree with Roger Hicks, even with a new camera. I think it would be interesting to place 10 new Leica MA cameras on a shutter testing device to see how far they are off right out of the box and after about 100 cycles for each speed and for good measure with the camera oriented both horizontal and then vertical.

This test really does not test for marked speeds. If, for instance all speeds were about 20% slow then the exposures would still be about even across the strip of negs.

 

[jsrockit]

Not in my experience (including actually measuring them). The fast ones are usually at least 1/3 stop slow, often 1/2 stop slow, and sometimes 2/3 stop slow or more. Yes, slow speed trains gum up, but unless they actually hang up for long enough that you can't hear the mechanism whirring, they are usually more accurate than 1/250 and up.

Cheers,

R.

I guess I meant when the slow shutter speeds are off, they tend to be way off and very noticeable. Of course it is all relative to a stop, so perhaps I was loose (and still am being loose) with my language.

 

[MIkhail]

OK, one clarification. I CAN hear the difference between 1/250 and 1/60 by listening, they certainly sound differently. What I meant to say - how does one know that 1/250 is indeed 1/250
What if what you are hearing is the difference between 1/125 and 1/30 instead?

This test really does not test for marked speeds. If, for instance all speeds were about 20% slow then the exposures would still be about even across the strip of negs.

Exactly.



Now, the approach of shooting the film at set shutter speed and seeing what result you get seems to me too non-scientific, if you will. There are plenty of other factors to sway the results during development, etc...

One obvious take away from this is -unless you are purchasing a new camera, any statements like "shutter accurate at all speeds" is mere wishful thinking. And should be factored into the price, I think.

Cam-Lite mini V2 Shutter Speed Tester seems like an interesting option to try.

 

[MIkhail]

For years I've had a small ZTS shutter speed tester (no longer in production, alas) and it's very revealing. There are two important lessons. First, shutters very rarely run fast. Second, if you shoot neg, extra exposure is generally to the good anyway. I have a Pentax which gives gorgeous tonality. Mostly this is because (as I discovered when I tested it), most speeds are about a stop slow...

Cheers,

R.

Agree.
I am OK with them being slow (have one camera like that, so I permanently set the exposure compensation accordingly) but one needs to know that, rather than keep guessing.

 

[radi(c)al_cam]

IIRC, one can use a good old record player for that test.

You put the camera on the turntable, but how it works exactly slipped my mind.

 

[Fraser]

there is a way to test using a dslr, basically with the film camera back open no lens camera with shutter locked open using a dslr (or similar) take picture through the open shutter of camera say at 1/60 5.6 (dslr lens). Then set film camera to 1/60 but this time (with cover over both cameras to stop light leaks) set dslr on B and take picture using the shutter in the film camera. Both exposures should be the same and you can continue doing the same thing for all shutter speeds.
It sound more complicated than it is but works great!

 

[MIkhail]

there is a way to test using a dslr, basically with the film camera back open no lens camera with shutter locked open using a dslr (or similar) take picture through the open shutter of camera say at 1/60 5.6 (dslr lens). Then set film camera to 1/60 but this time (with cover over both cameras to stop light leaks) set dslr on B and take picture using the shutter in the film camera. Both exposures should be the same and you can continue doing the same thing for all shutter speeds.
It sound more complicated than it is but works great!

This is similar to the method I mentioned originally with high speed camera.
However, what about Leica IIIf and likes? How do you get behind the lens of this one?

 

[zuiko85]

For years I've had a small ZTS shutter speed tester (no longer in production, alas) and it's very revealing. There are two important lessons. First, shutters very rarely run fast. Second, if you shoot neg, extra exposure is generally to the good anyway. I have a Pentax which gives gorgeous tonality. Mostly this is because (as I discovered when I tested it), most speeds are about a stop slow...

Cheers,

R.

Wow, that's quite a lot, that would mean 1/1000 would be 1/500, 1/500 would be 1/250 etc.