ferider
Veteran
It happens. Less likely when the lens is at infinity and a bit closed down.
I often carry the camera lens down or towards chest for safety. Or no strap at all, in a bag with grip, easy to pull out.
I often carry the camera lens down or towards chest for safety. Or no strap at all, in a bag with grip, easy to pull out.
bob338
Well-known
I just sat on the street with a beat up M4 trying to burn a hole in the curtains.
No Luck!
I pointed it directly into the sun on a tripod at f3.5 @ infinity, 1 meter and 5 meters.
The camera was pointed directly into the sun for a total of 7 minutes without moving.
On the other hand I left a Canon 7 sitting on the front seat of my car during a long drive up the coast once and I did burn those curtains. When I got my film back, every frame or three there was a new hole evident.
bob
No Luck!
I pointed it directly into the sun on a tripod at f3.5 @ infinity, 1 meter and 5 meters.
The camera was pointed directly into the sun for a total of 7 minutes without moving.
On the other hand I left a Canon 7 sitting on the front seat of my car during a long drive up the coast once and I did burn those curtains. When I got my film back, every frame or three there was a new hole evident.
bob
ferider
Veteran
I do think aperture and time of day play a big role, Bob.
I would rather use a Fed for the experiment, though
I would rather use a Fed for the experiment, though
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Essentially it is a matter of getting the smallest possible projection of the sun with the highest possible energy onto the curtain - aperture (the wider, the worse), focal length (the shorter, the worse) and focusing distance (the curtain is a few mm in front of the film plane, so focusing to that point will maximise the damage) all contribute.
-doomed-
film is exciting
This is typically what I do as well. I never had a burned shutter curtain ,I figure I'm just being too careful at times.
bob338
Well-known
I do think aperture and time of day play a big role, Bob.
I would rather use a Fed for the experiment, though
This camera is *almost* not worth repairing, Leica wants $1700 to repair it. I bought it for a bargain price and plan to have it repaired someday, but the curtains are already shot, so I don't have any qualms about further experimentation.
It's almost 11AM here in Northern California in the height of summer. If 7 minutes pointing directly in the sun won't burn this thing, what will??
I am open to any ideas you guys have. I have my video camera with me today so I can record it if anyone wants to see the carnage.
It's not often someone is willing to leave a BP M4 sitting in the sun trying to damage it, so let's hear some ideas...
bob
ferider
Veteran
How about this: (1) open the lens to f2 or more. (2) open the back and check at which distance the sun is "in focus" on the curtains. If somebody knows the distance between curtains and film, we can calculate this for a given focal lenth, of course. I do think, once it happens, it is a matter of seconds. It is pretty warm today (am in SJ).
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bob338
Well-known
I only have a f3.5 Summaron with me today...
Juan Valdenebro
Truth is beauty
Wow! Thanks everyone for the kind comments!
Cheers,
Juan
Cheers,
Juan
Sparrow
Veteran
I've taken lots of photos with the sun in the frame ... just saying
Ljós
Well-known
Bob, that could be a blockbuster video here at RFF. I agree with ferider, a f2 lens would certainly give "results" quickly.
On a general note, I worried a lot about this before and during the first weeks of owning a cloth-shutter rangefinder.
I made a quick test with a piece of paper and a 40mm f2 Rokkor.
It was summer and the sun was very strong (EV 16-17 @400 ASA). Wide open at f2 it took only a few moments to set the paper on fire, when the light was focussed into a small point. The burn was almost instantaneous. But I also quickly saw that stopping down made a huge difference. From f5.6 on I think I would have gotten a cramp in the hand from holding the lens sooner than burn the paper.
If you walk around on a sunny day and adjust your lens to the light (sunny would usually translate to at least f5.6, probably for most scenarios f8 and higher etc., YMMV), it would be very unlikely to get your shutter burned from just having the camera "worn"/hanging from a strap etc.
An interesting thing is that the slower film you are using, the higher is the risk for a shutter burn ;-), since you would need to open up by two stops with for a example 100 ASA vs. 400 ASA.
All in all, I tend to be in Roger Hick's camp, that it is less of a practical limitation than people think. But it is necessary that you develop habits of using/storing your gear. Think of putting down your camera at home on a table in the evening... Lens is wide open, because you were shooting outside... why put a cap on it, it's dark... The next day you see your camera bathing in sunlight, and your heart skips a beat
Have that scenario once, and you get in the habit of taking precautions. My habit is to set my M2 to f4, 1/60th (a compromise beween indoor and outdoor exposure, easy to adjust both ways, works for me ;-)) when I am done shooting. Already at f4 there is some protection from accidental shutter burn.
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
Rarely at f/1.4 (at least 5 seconds for damage, quite possibly 15). Keep doubling that and it's 10-30 sec at f/2, 20 seconds-1 minute at f/2.8, etc. On a bright sunny day I'm usually set to at least f/5.6 (1-4 minutes) and by f/8 or f/11 the sun moves across the sky faster than it takes to cause damage. Or use a cap, as Charlie says
Cheers,
R.
bob338
Well-known
I will bring a Summicron and a Summilux with me to work tomorrow and make this video. It should be interesting to see.
bob
bob
ferider
Veteran
Bob, just did a quick calculation: assuming the curtains to film distance is around 2mm (not sure what it is, somewhere between 2 and 3 I assume), you will need to set your 35mm lens to minimum focus (0.7m) for maximum effect. For a 50mm, 2mm curtains to film distance corresponds to 1.3m focus distance.
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Sparrow
Veteran
Precisely! ... well, actually I would have said never. In fact I had forgotten all about it until the interweb came along
Juan Valdenebro
Truth is beauty
In case of using a Leica body I'd have to take special care and change my present ways... I use a second body for selective focus hanging from my shoulder: with slow film and a lens at 1.4 ready without a cap, while shooting under direct sun with my main body with fast film prefocused and at f/11... This way I can decide DOF with total freedom and instantly, and even make both versions of a scene.
Everyday I feel how direct sun hits my 1.4 hanging camera lens directly, for long periods of time... Anyway, the solutions with a Barnack or M2 wouldn't be too complicated: a) cap (I don't like it), b) sun hitting camera back only (could be), c) using that body just for huge DOF with 28/35 well stopped down and preset shutter speed while under direct sun (makes sense being an unmetered body...)
I'm really surprised at how quickly curtains can be burnt...
Cheers,
Juan
Everyday I feel how direct sun hits my 1.4 hanging camera lens directly, for long periods of time... Anyway, the solutions with a Barnack or M2 wouldn't be too complicated: a) cap (I don't like it), b) sun hitting camera back only (could be), c) using that body just for huge DOF with 28/35 well stopped down and preset shutter speed while under direct sun (makes sense being an unmetered body...)
I'm really surprised at how quickly curtains can be burnt...
Cheers,
Juan
Mister E
Well-known
Just turn the bodies inboard instead of outboard facing. That solves all of the issues.
Juan Valdenebro
Truth is beauty
I guess you mean b)... Yes, it's an option, but that solution can produce accidents quickly at 1.4 if the camera turns as it's hanging...
I guess I'll prefer a Bessa for direct sun at 1.4...
Cheers,
Juan
SimonSawSunlight
Simon Fabel
I have lit cigarettes with my 1.2/35. doesn't work instantly, but it works.
P. Lynn Miller
Well-known
That is handy! The Nokton 35/1.2 is a important survival tool.
Do not how quick or exactly how... but I burnt a massive hole in the shutter of my M5... I am still trying to find the exposure or frame where the hole appeared. But the possibility of burning a hole in the shutter is a concern for me as I tend to shoot a lot of frames with the sun shining directly in the frame.
So holes in the shutter of a Leica M caused by the sun is not a myth.
Wonder if it is possible to sun-proof the shutter. There should be modern alternatives to the old shutter cloth. Something with Kevlar, carbon fibre, etc and etc, that is light proof, flexible and light-weight.
I am surprised to hear about a hole being burnt in a Canon 7 with its metal shutter. I suppose that is why Nikon ultimately designed their titanium shutter curtains.
I suppose it comes done to the durability vs. repair-ability quotient... a sun proof shutter such as the Nikon SP or Bessa is very difficult to repair and would require specialised parts and skills to repair while the Leica M shutter while vulnerable to sun burn is a very easy repair even for a timid user with easily sourced materials.
Wonder if even just painting the shutter curtains white would reduce the risk or coated with a aluminium coating. Of course, there is the consideration of how this treatment would effect the mass of the curtain and ultimately shutter timing and reliability. Probably just cause a massive flare issue on the back element!