Roger Hicks
Veteran
That is handy! The Nokton 35/1.2 is a important survival tool.
Do not how quick or exactly how... but I burnt a massive hole in the shutter of my M5... I am still trying to find the exposure or frame where the hole appeared. But the possibility of burning a hole in the shutter is a concern for me as I tend to shoot a lot of frames with the sun shining directly in the frame.
So holes in the shutter of a Leica M caused by the sun is not a myth.
Wonder if it is possible to sun-proof the shutter. There should be modern alternatives to the old shutter cloth. Something with Kevlar, carbon fibre, etc and etc, that is light proof, flexible and light-weight.
I am surprised to hear about a hole being burnt in a Canon 7 with its metal shutter. I suppose that is why Nikon ultimately designed their titanium shutter curtains.
I suppose it comes done to the durability vs. repair-ability quotient... a sun proof shutter such as the Nikon SP or Bessa is very difficult to repair and would require specialised parts and skills to repair while the Leica M shutter while vulnerable to sun burn is a very easy repair even for a timid user with easily sourced materials.
Wonder if even just painting the shutter curtains white would reduce the risk or coated with a aluminium coating. Of course, there is the consideration of how this treatment would effect the mass of the curtain and ultimately shutter timing and reliability. Probably just cause a massive flare issue on the back element!
So do I. So does Stewart. Neither of us has ever had a problem yet.
Cheers,
R.
Ljós
Well-known
Lynn, one would think that the M5's metering cell in the middle of the frame would "take the heat" 
(when cocked, of course), and I guess it does, but the rest is not protected, and sun burns are not limited to the center of the frame... which part of the shutter curtain was damaged on your M5?
Still, a case could be made that the M5 (and Leica CL) have "anti-shutter-burn-technology (in the middle of the frame (when the shutter is cocked)) ;-)
(when cocked, of course), and I guess it does, but the rest is not protected, and sun burns are not limited to the center of the frame... which part of the shutter curtain was damaged on your M5?Still, a case could be made that the M5 (and Leica CL) have "anti-shutter-burn-technology (in the middle of the frame (when the shutter is cocked)) ;-)
P. Lynn Miller
Well-known
Roger,
I accept your superior experience and I do not doubt Stewart either. So tell me what I am doing wrong.
I had a 2mm hole in the shutter of my M5 after portrait session where these photos were taken...
I was using the Nokton 50/1.1 at maximum aperture with Efke 25 film rated at ASA 12. I suppose this probably is a deadly combination of variables.
I suppose that by using a 4x ND filter would have reduced the risk while still letting me use the Nokton at f1.1 and Efke 25 film at speed with a shutter speed of about 1/250. But I wanted 1/1000 sec to stop the hair in the last photo.
I am open to any advise that you have...
Ljós
Well-known
I am afraid this is true. It certainly increases the likelihood of a shutter burn. In a sense, it is an extreme case, since f1.1 and ASA 12 is a rare combination (compared to the "average" use of other photographers). But for your desired pictorial effect, it was and is of course a combination that makes perfect sense.
When I posted earlier that using 100 ASA film was more "risky" than 400 ASA, it was a bit tongue-in-cheek. But your example (12 ASA) bears out the principle behind it. Unfortunately, the shutter curtain does not "know/care" about the "correct exposure", relative to the film speed used... all that matters for the curtain is the absolute effect of the (focused) sun.
In all likelihood, the "sun in the frame pictures" that Roger and others refer to, were taken at f5.6 or whereabouts, and I totally see how you can take pictures for decades and never have a problem. At f1.1, it is a different matter.
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Ljós
Well-known
@f1.1 that would translate to about 3 to 8 seconds.
Brian Legge
Veteran
Bob, I imagine testing that m4 for burning takes a decent amount of your time. I would be glad to continue your experiment if you want to send the camera to me indefinitely.
johnnygulliver
Established
it has been said that setting the aperture wide open with the focus at close-up would prevent the 'burning glass' effect on the shutter curtain or sensor - My Leica guy says he repaired a burnt shutter for a customer, only for him to have the same thing happen to the camera the following week - one would scarcely credit this on our foggy little island, would you...?
Ljós
Well-known
That should read "stopped all the way down" instead of "wide open". Wide open the "burning glass" effect is maximised.
ferider
Veteran
Wide open and close-up are the worst conditions. Close the aperture a bit, and put the focus to infinity (see post #35).
johnnygulliver
Established
oh well, there we are, there are so many opinions out there - and who is going to take the trouble test them all - the burning shutter curtain thing has to be classed as a very rare event, and with the smallest amount of fore-thought it simply isn't going to happen to you...
wgerrard
Veteran
As a kid, I used magnifying glasses to try and set fire to pieces of paper. Not as easy as it might seem.
I typically carry a camera in my right hand, gripping it from behind. The lens either points off to the side or at a slight downward angle. If I'm walking, the camera moves as my arms swing, which ought to provide some protection even if it was pointed straight at the sun.
I wonder if folks who use a neck strap might be at greater (a relative term) risk? They might be more inclined, when standing still, to hold the camera steady with one hand as it points slightly upward. On the odd occasion, someone might inadvertently point it at the sun.
I typically carry a camera in my right hand, gripping it from behind. The lens either points off to the side or at a slight downward angle. If I'm walking, the camera moves as my arms swing, which ought to provide some protection even if it was pointed straight at the sun.
I wonder if folks who use a neck strap might be at greater (a relative term) risk? They might be more inclined, when standing still, to hold the camera steady with one hand as it points slightly upward. On the odd occasion, someone might inadvertently point it at the sun.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Indeed a deadly combination. The fashion for ultra-fast lenses wide open in bright sun -- obviously the film speed doesn't matter -- will bring the risk to the maximum, and may be why this (formerly all but unknown) phenomenon has received so much coverage lately.
Even so, you'd need the sun in shot, steadily, for a few seconds while you were composing, or between shots, to burn a hole. Work fast and it really shouldn't happen. Or, as you say, use an ND.
Cheers,
R.
gliderbee
Well-known
In such a situation, it might be wise to close the aperture while composing, and open it up just for shooting.
Stefan.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Stefan,
Of course! Brilliantly simple! Definitely in the category of 'Why didn't I think of that?'
Cheers,
R.
Sparrow
Veteran
Or put a warning on the lens case like they do with fags (the english ones that is)
BOKEH CAN SERIOUSLY DAMAGE YOUR SHUTTER
in large unfriendly letters
BOKEH CAN SERIOUSLY DAMAGE YOUR SHUTTER
in large unfriendly letters
Neare
Well-known
Anyone left the camera on a tripod and burnt a hole right through the back door yet? =P
johnnygulliver
Established
LOL, nah, by that time it's gone through the pressure plate 'beam' is well oof... everybody knows that, or the sun has set ;-D
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bob338
Well-known
i was planning to burn this M4's shutter curtains today but our summer weather is back; cloudy and overcast! so i'll get to it next week.
bob
bob
wolves3012
Veteran
There is a previous thread about this (probably several) but I did some tests to see how easy it is and I can tell you that some of you guys are seriously underestimating how easy it is - IF the circumstances are right!
I tried hand-holding a 50mm f/2 lens and focussing the noonday summer sun onto a piece of shutter-cloth. I burnt a hole through it almost instantly (and that was our "sunny f/11 UK" sun!). At f/2.8 it takes maybe half a second, f/4 a second or so etc. By the time you get to f/16 it's hard to hold the image still for long enough but I could still char it enough to leave a mark.
The reality is, of course, that I made a deliberate attempt and having a camera dangling around as you walk is unlikely to get the conditions right. All the same, I'd say close-focussing or collapsing a lens or stopping it down well, when in direct sun, is prudent. Owners of metal-shuttered cameras can safely ignore that of course.
I tried hand-holding a 50mm f/2 lens and focussing the noonday summer sun onto a piece of shutter-cloth. I burnt a hole through it almost instantly (and that was our "sunny f/11 UK" sun!). At f/2.8 it takes maybe half a second, f/4 a second or so etc. By the time you get to f/16 it's hard to hold the image still for long enough but I could still char it enough to leave a mark.
The reality is, of course, that I made a deliberate attempt and having a camera dangling around as you walk is unlikely to get the conditions right. All the same, I'd say close-focussing or collapsing a lens or stopping it down well, when in direct sun, is prudent. Owners of metal-shuttered cameras can safely ignore that of course.
johnnygulliver
Established
thanks, a little simple empirical evidence at least; I always though close focussing was a good idea (as the sun is at infinity), I was unsure about aperture on the basis that open the coc are larger - and burning glass point less certain, probably wrong because of the above...