How Far we have come, article by Thom Hogan
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jsrockit
Moderator
I'd use a Epson R-1D or Leica M8 over the Nikon V1. 😉
kshapero
South Florida Man
Hell I'd use my M6 over a V1.
tstermitz
Well-known
Digital sensors have come a long way.
What I find interesting is the thought-exercise of sensor quality (ISO & resolution) vs the convenience of a DSLR system which has definite advantages when it comes to lenses and handling. Thom Hogan made the point that sensor/image quality wins out eventually.
I have a vision of buying great lenses, and then attaching the latest little sensor/imaging box: maaybe connecting a Nikon V1 to my 300mm f/2.8 Nikon super tele with a 1.7x multiplier.
The lens is the important purchase, and Leica lenses can handle much higher quality sensors than the M9.
What I find interesting is the thought-exercise of sensor quality (ISO & resolution) vs the convenience of a DSLR system which has definite advantages when it comes to lenses and handling. Thom Hogan made the point that sensor/image quality wins out eventually.
I have a vision of buying great lenses, and then attaching the latest little sensor/imaging box: maaybe connecting a Nikon V1 to my 300mm f/2.8 Nikon super tele with a 1.7x multiplier.
The lens is the important purchase, and Leica lenses can handle much higher quality sensors than the M9.
kuzano
Veteran
Re: The Olympus choices
Re: The Olympus choices
I'm still packing around an E-1, and I also have an E400. I've owned a couple of the Pens, and you are correct about the mirrorless camera's. I've certainly found them quite an improvement in technology over the E-1/E400. We are now approaching 16Mp in the Pen and 4/3 cameras.
However, and it's just one item, but it's big for me. Nothing that Olympus has done since the Kodak sensor in the E-1 delivers the color rendition (and that goes for the last Olympus Kodak sensor'd option in the European E-400 at 10Mp).
Sometimes it only take one or two small attributes of the older camera's to keep them at the top of some people's lists.
I currently have an E-1 with just over 500 shutter actuations. It's my 5th E-1, and I just keep buying them for the color from that 5Mp Kodak sensor.
I do expect to buy another mirrorless Pen soon, because of the fantastic images from my $400 E-PL1, and the size/weight advantage.
But out of 5 E-1 cameras, I have never had one operational issue, and the colors still amaze.
Re: The Olympus choices
I'm still packing around an E-1, and I also have an E400. I've owned a couple of the Pens, and you are correct about the mirrorless camera's. I've certainly found them quite an improvement in technology over the E-1/E400. We are now approaching 16Mp in the Pen and 4/3 cameras.
However, and it's just one item, but it's big for me. Nothing that Olympus has done since the Kodak sensor in the E-1 delivers the color rendition (and that goes for the last Olympus Kodak sensor'd option in the European E-400 at 10Mp).
Sometimes it only take one or two small attributes of the older camera's to keep them at the top of some people's lists.
I currently have an E-1 with just over 500 shutter actuations. It's my 5th E-1, and I just keep buying them for the color from that 5Mp Kodak sensor.
I do expect to buy another mirrorless Pen soon, because of the fantastic images from my $400 E-PL1, and the size/weight advantage.
But out of 5 E-1 cameras, I have never had one operational issue, and the colors still amaze.
B.J.Scharp
Still developing
I'm not sure on the RRF policies on this, but in my experience, linking to an article is more appropriate than just copy-pasting it. People like Thom make money from visitors to their site, which you are now depriving him of. One could even go so far as calling this copyright infringement.
jsrockit
Moderator
What's so bad about the M9 sensor?
Moriturii
Well-known
The problem is that people argue about opinions as if they are facts, as if we some are saying earth is flat and some other are saying "No! It's round!", use whatever you want and just ShUT UP! =)
kshapero
South Florida Man
Proper id of the author was made. There is no attempt to take credit.
Find more info on Thom Hogan at: http://www.bythom.com/
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
He was saying that Leica lenses had such high resolution that they could be used with a higher resolution sensor. Nothing wrong with the current sensor, just that Leica lenses can handle more pixels. Nikon and Canon now make cameras with 22-24mp and many of their lenses aren't sharp enough for such high-res sensors.
MaxElmar
Well-known
This is a good job by Thom. As a professional Nikon shooter. I read his F site almost daily and his Mirrorless site almost as often.
He's right about the sensor thing - it's the heart of a digital camera. The only thing that's holding back the mirrorless cameras are the crappy user interfaces and/or lack of good glass. I would also like to see a sturdy mirrorless camera with some sort of weather proofing.
The big exception to this is Leica, of course which has (what I find to be) an excellent UI, sturdy construction, and exceptional glass. Leica is ready for a new sensor. One that fits in Leica's very premium market space.
Turning the Leica X into a real premium mirrorless system is a tough call - big risk - and potentially big reward. Leica could kill in the market with the right product, but memories of what (may have?) happened with the CL and the M perhaps haunt management. If the Leica X was locked into autofocus APS (or smaller?) and the M remained true rangefinder 24x36 it could work with the right price points....
And what of the S system? How cool would a compact mirrorless S system be the stratosphere of the market?
He's right about the sensor thing - it's the heart of a digital camera. The only thing that's holding back the mirrorless cameras are the crappy user interfaces and/or lack of good glass. I would also like to see a sturdy mirrorless camera with some sort of weather proofing.
The big exception to this is Leica, of course which has (what I find to be) an excellent UI, sturdy construction, and exceptional glass. Leica is ready for a new sensor. One that fits in Leica's very premium market space.
Turning the Leica X into a real premium mirrorless system is a tough call - big risk - and potentially big reward. Leica could kill in the market with the right product, but memories of what (may have?) happened with the CL and the M perhaps haunt management. If the Leica X was locked into autofocus APS (or smaller?) and the M remained true rangefinder 24x36 it could work with the right price points....
And what of the S system? How cool would a compact mirrorless S system be the stratosphere of the market?
NickTrop
Veteran
I like Hogan but where I disagree is that I think consumers have unrealistic expectations in this regard. It ain't the camera body that makes people not want to used a particular camera - it's the lens. Is an NEX body really that much less of a chore to carry around with a big, honkin' lens attached to it than a compact APS-C DSLR?
jsrockit
Moderator
For once I'm going to agree with you and sat no...especially if you use a small prime on the DSLR. However, if sony gets its act together and releases small primes that are of decent quality, then it is a different story.
j j
Well-known
"I've been struck lately by the polarization in attitude about mirrorless cameras. There's one group that thinks they're the best things since sliced bread. There's another group that thinks they're simply not good enough and should be avoided like the plague."
Has anyone encountered this dichotamy? I've met people who like both and people who prefer one to the other, but sliced bread and plague never came up in discussions.
I found the article poorly put together and self-conflicting. At one point I was reading how anyone would want a new dinky Nikon in preference to an old weighty Nikon and then I'm reading that Nikon needs to put its finger out and supply what people want.
Has anyone encountered this dichotamy? I've met people who like both and people who prefer one to the other, but sliced bread and plague never came up in discussions.
I found the article poorly put together and self-conflicting. At one point I was reading how anyone would want a new dinky Nikon in preference to an old weighty Nikon and then I'm reading that Nikon needs to put its finger out and supply what people want.
I agree too. NONE of the mirrorless cameras are functionally smaller than the compact APS-C DSLRs.
NickTrop
Veteran
Yeah - I dunno, I have a compact Nikon DSLR with their 35mm (50mm crop) prime. Content with this camera. I don't view it as a chore at all to carry, and I have played around with one of the Oly EPs with a zoom and kinda walked away not "getting it". Seen picks with people with NEX and big honkin zooms, don't get that one either.
I say a small cheap sling bag with an extra battery. No issue at all. And my take on mirrorless is that they simply lop off things I don't mind having - like a built-in flash and an optical viewfinder. (Then sometimes sell them as pricey accessories...) I can get any DSLR (APS-C), gives me these things built-in as part of the package, usually for the same price. I dunno, I see mirrorless as an "unbundling" strategy, mainly.
Benjamin Marks
Veteran
I'm with Nick on this. I have a lot of really nice lenses. What I want is a platform to slap them on. The recent Pentax Q, Nikon V1 etc. are less than interesting to me because my current lenses will mostly be galumphing beasts on those tiny boxes. The promised Fuji X1 is more interesting, as I can see a Canon 50 LTM (or a Leica, or C/V) on there in my mind's eye pretty easily. But then we get to controls, and there is only so much miniaturization that a hand-held device can take before a user with average hands can't manage it. So I actually answer Nick's question on the NEX in the affirmative: yes, the NEX is a pain. Not because of the form factor per se, but because the form factor has left the designer very little real estate to put the controls. The genius of traditional Leica and Nikon body design, for me, is that the controls fall _very_ easily to hand. Really, no thinking required. Maybe this is just another way of saying that I am used to them. But certain tools have reached good design holding patterns: hammers, bicycles, kitchen knives -- they haven't really changed their basic forms in 100 years. You will know that the current digital revolution has reached its interface-design plateau when the "haptics" -- the hand-feel -- for cameras stabilizes again.
I think Thom's point though was about image quality. And in that realm, I think we are "there." Now if we could just get a design genius to make the box that the imaging chips will be held in, we'd be set. Until we figure out how to get the chips implanted in our heads and run the user interface subvocally. ;-)
I think Thom's point though was about image quality. And in that realm, I think we are "there." Now if we could just get a design genius to make the box that the imaging chips will be held in, we'd be set. Until we figure out how to get the chips implanted in our heads and run the user interface subvocally. ;-)
kshapero
South Florida Man
The new forthcoming Olympus OM-D?
Ezzie
E. D. Russell Roberts
Pointless exercise, comparing cameras of different eras like this. Of course I'd have chosen a newer better camera over an old and technically outdated one, if image quality alone were the sole criterion. Anyone can rig a pole to get whatever result they want, especially if time machines are presumed invented.
MaxElmar
Well-known
The camera body, specifically the UI, made me want to stop using Olympus M43. I told myself that it was the sensor, but it was the UI that put the nail in the coffin. That camera (E-PL2) was a delight with a the Panasonic 14/2.5 and 20/1.7... but it burned me a few times with the UI, and then I got to looking at the pixels... something about the way the NR and the JPEG compression interacted would sometimes make ugly artifacts in skintones... it killed me that the settings would seemingly change themselves!
The glass was actually quite good and quite compact. Not Leica excellent, but very good.
I sold the whole mess, bought a D7000 and extended my Barnack collection. No regrets, mind still open, still looking for compact digital solution. I've been looking since 1999.