How long until a Chinese company makes a digital rangefinder?

[raydm6]

… If Leica made a Digital Barnack I'd think I'd died and that the monkey'd gone to heaven 😉 Screw my Canon 1.4 on and use it till I'm gone LOL!

There’s a fun little discussion about that here on RFF:

Who wants a digital Barnack?

Hopefully, someone can help me post a poll with a few options. But, essentially, I would like to see a IIIG body (yes, a new camera made with the old tooling and materials) that contains a working digital instrument within. Think about the quality and size of an original Barnack that is purely...

rangefinderforum.com

 

[boojum]

Thorsten Veblen's "Conspicuous Consumption" is an example of "Veblen Good." Paying more than US$5,000 for a handbag is an example. Spending that kind of money on cameras and lenses is unassailably wise. Who wants to disagree with that? Not here. ;o)

 

[Freakscene]

The sort of banding you can see in the lower half of the photo happened to me a lot.

 

[wlewisiii]

Hah! I'd rather a IIIf red dial with a self timer (eh, they can be useful 😉 ) the G finder is a pain in the barnack form factor. Make it a Canon P body instead and I'd be needing a loto win to pay what I'd be willing to give for that puppy!

 

[boojum]

The sort of banding you can see in the lower half of the photo happened to me a lot.

Yeah, well, you always were a whiner. LOL I can see where this is a problem. Now let me see if I can duplicate it under "normal" circumstances and not waving the camera around while aimed at an LED fluorescent lighted room. I am not feeling tip-top but will make every effort to go out and eat those al pastors, and asadas and get some motion photos. If I can find some lights LED I will dink around in their area. You owe me for the tacos. ;o)

 

[Out to Lunch]

Those who really want to know could ask 上海海鸥数码照相机有限公司 -the link is in English. Seagull produced a digital TLR some five years ago and it still features on its site. Cheers, OtL

 

[Freakscene]

Yeah, well, you always were a whiner. LOL I can see where this is a problem. Now let me see if I can duplicate it under "normal" circumstances and not waving the camera around while aimed at an LED fluorescent lighted room. I am not feeling tip-top but will make every effort to go out and eat those al pastors, and asadas and get some motion photos. If I can find some lights LED I will dink around in their area. You owe me for the tacos. ;o)

Please don’t accuse me of whining when I am simply reporting provable technical issues that are important to me. You might think you are being funny or clever, but particularly on the internet in the absence of tone, and given that I don’t know you, it’s just rude.

 

[boojum]

Please don’t accuse me of whining when I am simply reporting provable technical issues that are important to me. You might think you are being funny or clever, but particularly on the internet in the absence of tone, and given that I don’t know you, it’s just rude.

Man, I was only kidding. I won't make that mistake again.

 

[former member]

I've used the electronic shutter on the Nikon Z5 for one picture. Ever.


First image- "Silent Mode", ie electronic shutter as some call it. Second- saw results on the screen, turned it off and went back to the real shutter. The Z9- supposedly fixes the issue, but still uses a rolling readout instead of a real shutter. I'm sure someone will identify some lighting issues that cause problems.

 

[Coldkennels]

My jaundiced experience on this board concerning Pixii is that very few have held one, fewer have worked with one and that the vast majority are just talking.

What I was trying to illustrate is that I know from the spec sheets alone that it doesn't fulfil a need that I have. Can it produce nice photos? Sure, but so can my iPhone. Can it mount all the LTM lenses I've got lying around? Sure, but so can my X-Pro 2. Does it give them the "correct" field of view - in other words, can I use them the same way I use them on a IIIg? No. That annoys me enough on the X-Pro; I'm not spending £2.5k on another camera with the same "problem" when a Leica M is only an extra couple of hundred quid more. I don't know why it's so hard to comprehend that this is a real deal breaker for a lot of people, and that I don't need to use a Pixii to know that it's an issue for me; I don't need to ride a Vespa to know that it isn't the same as a Ducati. I'm not saying either is worse - there are a lot of people who love Vespas - but it actively isn't for me.

I have read of rolling shutter problems but have not experienced them. I am not denying that this may happen. I have not had banding from LED lights. I just took a shot of some "fluorescent" LED's and the light they cast is with no banding. Is 60Hz current at 120 volts different from 50Hz current at 220 volts? [...] So unless you have experienced banding yourself while using a Pixii under LED's and can report banding as fact I am a little skeptical.

The X-Pro 2 also has an (optional) electronic shutter, just like the Pixii's. It's weird using something so silent with no physical feedback, and in 99% of cases, it does work fine, you're right. But every so often, it does throw up weirdness. I shoot a lot of high-speed sport photography; a camera that doesn't have a mechanical shutter would be utterly useless to me. Again: Vespas and Ducatis.

I am not sure what is thrilling or better about SD cards. I have another camera with internal memory. It writes to internal memory faster than to cards. I can use a card in it but choose not to. And while Pixii was and still is being criticized for internal memory I know of another good and respected company which has done the same, It is 2023.

I didn't think the Pixii had an SD card slot? If it does, I'm wrong, and I take it back. But SD cards are incredibly useful things - I shoot a lot of video (another thing the Pixii can't do, correct?), and it's easy to fill up a 32GB card or internal storage, especially in shooting 4K. SD cards are small and easy to swap out. But even when I'm just doing product photography, it's much, much faster to take an SD card out of a camera and slot it into a laptop and access directly than it is to faff around with cables or proprietary software.

There's also the issue of redundancy: a professional sports photographer I know well refused to drop his Nikon DSLRs in favour of a mirrorless system for a long time because of the lack of two SD card slots in early mirrorless bodies. He sets his camera up to save everything to both cards at once (I don't know whether it's RAW on both, or a RAW/JPG split) so that if one card fails, he's got a backup. You can't do that with a Pixii. Or a Vespa, I guess.

Anyway, Boojum... if you like pootling around on your Vespa, that's great. More power to you, and it looks lovely - but it isn't for everyone, and you really don't have to defend them and spread pro-Vespa propaganda at every turn!

 

[Coldkennels]

I've used the electronic shutter on the Nikon Z5 for one picture. Ever.
View attachment 4819578

I shot a video of an event on Fuji's X-T1 many years ago in a venue that must have had the same lighting setup as that - exactly the same results in every frame. Absolute nightmare. That was a hard lesson on the effects of artificial lighting on electronic shutters.

 

[Godfrey]

The Leica CL is my digital Barnak. 😉

The Pixii's eshutter was not a problem for me (heck, the Hassy 907x with 300ms readout eshutter hasn't been a problem...) but i do understand that this is for many.

However, i do think it a little unfair to be comparing the cost of a new Pixii with the cost of a used anything else. And remember that the Epson R-D1 that everyone here delights in was also an APS-C camera, and also cost nearly $2900 when new. And, since i had one briefly, was a far far clumsier camera in use than the Pixii is. (Briefly because it also just didnt work well enough for my use. I sold it a week later.)

G

 

[Coldkennels]

However, i do think it a little unfair to be comparing the cost of a new Pixii with the cost of a used anything else.

But this is precisely the problem potential (or, in this case, actual) rangefinder manufacturers have: how do you make a camera that can compete in a marketplace with high-quality old ones that are usually still serviceable? This is very much the case with film (look at how many people kept on buying and using M2s or IIIfs instead of picking up brand new Voigtlander Bessas), but it's still relevant with digital bodies.

Leica do it by appealing to a certain cachet, or by positioning themselves as a "Veblen good", as people love to remind us about. People looking for user digital cameras have two main options: used Leicas that will likely have a long shelf life due to an established network of repair technicians and high demand (look at how long the M9 was supported!), or a new Pixii that not only may not be serviceable in five years if the company doesn't succeed that doesn't meet certain criteria the M does (as mentioned above).

When the price of the two are roughly the same, it's a tough sell for the Pixii.

Sadly, for something as niche as rangefinders, I think manufacturers have to meet certain expectations, and a "full frame" body is going to be part of that unless they drastically undercut the price of used full-frame digital Ms.

 

[former member]

The Nikon Z5 was about the same price of the ZFc. I bought the Z5. I prefer the classic controls. If Nikon had a full frame ZF, even at twice the price- I would have bought it THEN.
Now that I'm using the Z5, not so sure. As much as I like rangefinder cameras- I'll use the M8, M9, and M Monochrom until they are dead and beyond service. Likely to be the last new Leica cameras that I buy. I don't want 60MPixels. No need for it. Liveview camera for use with lots of legacy lenses, Z5 checked that mark for $1K. Selling a Nikon F3HP "LNIB" paid for that. If all my Leica cameras died, and a working M9 could not be found- I'll be shooting more film.

 

[jszokoli]

I really don't think digital Leica's are "Veblen Goods." They are just expensive. There is a difference, the mark-up on a $5000 handbag is in a different league. Leica is not making money hand over fist. If you want to expand the definition of "Veblen Goods" to anything you can't afford, fine but I really don't think that is the definition.

Manufactures like Nikon, and Canon have been competing with Leica since the advent of SLR's and while gaining the vast market share have not extinguished the rangefinder.

There are many people here on RFF who value rangefinders, and buy them, and to call them "Veblen Goods" labels those individuals as posers. I have my reasons to use rangefinders and it's not to impress anyone.

Joe

 

[boojum]

What I was trying to illustrate is that I know from the spec sheets alone that it doesn't fulfil a need that I have. Can it produce nice photos? Sure, but so can my iPhone. Can it mount all the LTM lenses I've got lying around? Sure, but so can my X-Pro 2. Does it give them the "correct" field of view - in other words, can I use them the same way I use them on a IIIg? No. That annoys me enough on the X-Pro; I'm not spending £2.5k on another camera with the same "problem" when a Leica M is only an extra couple of hundred quid more. I don't know why it's so hard to comprehend that this is a real deal breaker for a lot of people, and that I don't need to use a Pixii to know that it's an issue for me; I don't need to ride a Vespa to know that it isn't the same as a Ducati. I'm not saying either is worse - there are a lot of people who love Vespas - but it actively isn't for me.


The X-Pro 2 also has an (optional) electronic shutter, just like the Pixii's. It's weird using something so silent with no physical feedback, and in 99% of cases, it does work fine, you're right. But every so often, it does throw up weirdness. I shoot a lot of high-speed sport photography; a camera that doesn't have a mechanical shutter would be utterly useless to me. Again: Vespas and Ducatis.


I didn't think the Pixii had an SD card slot? If it does, I'm wrong, and I take it back. But SD cards are incredibly useful things - I shoot a lot of video (another thing the Pixii can't do, correct?), and it's easy to fill up a 32GB card or internal storage, especially in shooting 4K. SD cards are small and easy to swap out. But even when I'm just doing product photography, it's much, much faster to take an SD card out of a camera and slot it into a laptop and access directly than it is to faff around with cables or proprietary software.

There's also the issue of redundancy: a professional sports photographer I know well refused to drop his Nikon DSLRs in favour of a mirrorless system for a long time because of the lack of two SD card slots in early mirrorless bodies. He sets his camera up to save everything to both cards at once (I don't know whether it's RAW on both, or a RAW/JPG split) so that if one card fails, he's got a backup. You can't do that with a Pixii. Or a Vespa, I guess.

Anyway, Boojum... if you like pootling around on your Vespa, that's great. More power to you, and it looks lovely - but it isn't for everyone, and you really don't have to defend them and spread pro-Vespa propaganda at every turn!

I was unclear, I guess, I said that another camera had both internal and CF cards, not the Pixii. Pixii is purely internal memory. Redundancy? Like the Leicas?

I get the impression that the Pixii is in the "Rock Game." Get me a rock, No, no, a bigger rock. No, no, not that big. No, no, I wanted one with blue spots. No, no, the blue spots are good but where are the jagged edges? And so it goes, I guess you get the idea.

My response is always the same: it takes a good picture, Color and detail are great. Bells and whistles are great, current DSLR's are awash in them, but it is the image which trumps all for me. In tests the Pixii has done well, DxO says best of APS-C and 28th overall including medium format. This group on Flickr has images of great detail and color and the Pixii group on Facebook has some recent exquisite postings by a Japanese photographer.

You are right, the Pixii is not for you. You shouldn't own one.

Pixii et New Pixii

Rassembler les utilisateurs de Pixii et informer ceux qui sont curieux et amateur de beaux boîtiers télémètriques.

flickr.com

 

[CLAdictic]

I don't give a damn what price Communist China would sell a rangefinder for, not for me. I try to limit my product purchases from China as much as possible.

 

[Out to Lunch]

Those who really want to know could ask 上海海鸥数码照相机有限公司 -the link is in English. Seagull produced a digital TLR some five years ago and it still features on its site. Cheers, OtL

To go back to the original question: "How long until a Chinese company makes a digital rangefinder?", and my post, above, a friend in China called Seagull -once upon a time one of the major Chinese camera makers. 1. their launch of the digital TLR some five years ago, was a flop; they stopped production but have a few in their warehouse for which they now ask RMB 5.800 (US$ 845), and they don't ship internationally. 2. It appears they've abandoned the digital camera market in China altogether which is now dominated by the usual Japanese suspects and, yes, Leica also sells a lot of cameras there. Happy Easter! Cheers, OtL

 

[santino]

Nowadays communist China is good chinese marketing…

 

[Out to Lunch]

Nowadays communist China is good chinese marketing…

Please don't hesitate to explain what that means. I for one don't have a clue. Cheers, OtL