How Long Until The M9?

I am very happy with my M8.2. Live is to short to wait. Especially as there are currently some interesting rebates, so no reason to hesitate. In case M9 will follow in due time, it will stick to my summicron 28, while my m8.2 will glue to my summilux 50.
I do not necessarily require FF, but any kind of sensor improvement like dynamic range and high iso performance are welcome to any camera system. Nevertheless, for the time being my photos are not limited by technology but by my own capabilites. So I will utilize the time until a successor will show up to work on myself.

Regards
Steve
 
jaapv said:
The pro camera by Leica will be the S2 for the high megapixel market. There are many professionals using the M8, mainly in the wedding/reportage section, but for Leica that is not their core market.
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When I had an M8, I sought out info that would lead me to believe that I was not alone in using it professionally, it is what I wanted to believe so that is where my bias was.

But since I really do meet a lot of photographers through various ways and paths, what you state above is simply not true, especially in this new economy. A few pros here and there use the M8, not *many* as you have stated above. This is mostly due to a bad reputation in reliability and cost compared to other systems.

I wish I could afford the luxury of M8.2 at 6K+ but in all honesty, I can't. I am skeptical of the future economy and not only want to stay debt free, I want to keep stuffing capitol in the bank in lieu of this world worsening. Maybe down the road a full frame, IR filter and bug free M9 would get 8K from me, but not the current incarnation for the current price.

You see, most photographers who earn a respectable living are affected by this crunch. For example, Tribune Media is going bankrupt soley due to the loss of ad revenue. All publications / media are feeling large drops in ad revenue, I talk to many of them. Ad revenue is down the past two quarters an amount that is so scary, no one wants to publish the figure in fear of it worsening the sector confidence level.

This is not just stuff I read on the Yahoo home page, it is what I hear through direct contact with people in the business for real. And this is the global economy by the way, not just the U.S....

So what does all this mean in terms of an M9?

Simple, all companies are afraid of their customer taking a lot longer to return than they would like, so they too, cut spending just like the rest of us. We all scale back into safety mode, some more than others...

Cameras are not food, water or air quality, they are cameras, pretty low on the human scale of basic survival. I can do my job pretty well with FAR less than I have right now and so can many shooters who are both talented & pragmatic.

So R&D slows down if demand does, pretty simple. Companies need that ROI to keep out the red let alone pay shareholders. So expect the cycle for a new M this time around to be a bit longer.....and possibly a lot longer if the economy stays conservative.

RFF and the Leica forums are not Leica's primary customer base, just part. Start looking for even more clues in the bigger picture as to how a company like Leica is thinking right now.

And from what I gather from the shooters I know who were even considering the S2 system at one time, they are no longer.

With products having glitches on intro, the time it might take Leica to actually have stock AND the big drop in ad revenues, there is simply NO way any of these guys are plunking money into a totally unproven and very expensive new medium format system by Leica. This is what they are telling me anyway. These photographers and their clients are more than happy with the look of all the glass and options high MP cameras like the 1DS-III and others have at a fraction of the cost. Some elite names may buy it, some will be given it on permanent loan like Leica did with the M8.

Personally, I doubt the S2 will be able to weather the current economic storm, it is just too much investment with horrible market timing. By the time the S2 actually hits the shelves if at all, the 1DSV will be announced with an appropriate stable of new glass to match it's 30+MP sensor and brand new body design.

So as much as I hate to say it, I am concerned about the future of leica. People seem to think that history will continue to repeat it self...who in the hell says it has to? New times yield new results.

By the way, I am very grateful to be doing decent in light of the economy. The biggest reasons for this is that I have stayed out of debt, have avoided the stock market since 9/11, put money away and liquidated some luxury assets like the M8 that did not carry their weight in my tool box to further infuse capitol.

I am also protecting the pricey Kodachrome Project by keeping liquid...I have full frame film M's and Kodachrome to keep my R/F fix at bay.

Any new digital R/F can easily wait, I am not the least bit saddened by that....
 
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BillBlackwell said:
It's not. That's why we'll have to wait.

Why would you assume we'll be limited by today's technology three years from now?

Besides, IMHO, there is no reason to produce an M9 without a larger sensor.
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It always amazes me too in how people assume tomorrow is not possible..
 
There are many professionals using the M8, mainly in the wedding/reportage section...
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Really? I don't know of one wedding photographer using an M8, never mind many. I knew a bunch who used M6's and M7's, though.
 
Leica stated at Photokina that the M9 would come after the R10 and not before. So speculate all you want but they have made their schedule public already.

Gene
 
Krosya said:
Speaking of Sony - they could crush Leica if they just would make a Digital Hexar RF like camera. We all know it would be better.
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If they make a camera like they make a phone it would be a piece of cr@p. My Sony phone is pretty pathetic in every way.

Leica seems to do things how they want when they want. They are a tiny company by today's standards. The M9 will arrive when it is ready, after they get around to it.
 
KM-25 said:
When I had an M8, I sought out info that would lead me to believe that I was not alone in using it professionally, it is what I wanted to believe so that is where my bias was.

But since I really do meet a lot of photographers through various ways and paths, what you state above is simply not true, especially in this new economy. A few pros here and there use the M8, not *many* as you have stated above. This is mostly due to a bad reputation in reliability and cost compared to other systems.

I wish I could afford the luxury of M8.2 at 6K+ but in all honesty, I can't. I am skeptical of the future economy and not only want to stay debt free, I want to keep stuffing capitol in the bank in lieu of this world worsening. Maybe down the road a full frame, IR filter and bug free M9 would get 8K from me, but not the current incarnation for the current price.

You see, most photographers who earn a respectable living are affected by this crunch. For example, Tribune Media is going bankrupt soley due to the loss of ad revenue. All publications / media are feeling large drops in ad revenue, I talk to many of them. Ad revenue is down the past two quarters an amount that is so scary, no one wants to publish the figure in fear of it worsening the sector confidence level.

This is not just stuff I read on the Yahoo home page, it is what I hear through direct contact with people in the business for real. And this is the global economy by the way, not just the U.S....

So what does all this mean in terms of an M9?

Simple, all companies are afraid of their customer taking a lot longer to return than they would like, so they too, cut spending just like the rest of us. We all scale back into safety mode, some more than others...

Cameras are not food, water or air quality, they are cameras, pretty low on the human scale of basic survival. I can do my job pretty well with FAR less than I have right now and so can many shooters who are both talented & pragmatic.

So R&D slows down if demand does, pretty simple. Companies need that ROI to keep out the red let alone pay shareholders. So expect the cycle for a new M this time around to be a bit longer.....and possibly a lot longer if the economy stays conservative.

RFF and the Leica forums are not Leica's primary customer base, just part. Start looking for even more clues in the bigger picture as to how a company like Leica is thinking right now.

And from what I gather from the shooters I know who were even considering the S2 system at one time, they are no longer.

With products having glitches on intro, the time it might take Leica to actually have stock AND the big drop in ad revenues, there is simply NO way any of these guys are plunking money into a totally unproven and very expensive new medium format system by Leica. This is what they are telling me anyway. These photographers and their clients are more than happy with the look of all the glass and options high MP cameras like the 1DS-III and others have at a fraction of the cost. Some elite names may buy it, some will be given it on permanent loan like Leica did with the M8.

Personally, I doubt the S2 will be able to weather the current economic storm, it is just too much investment with horrible market timing. By the time the S2 actually hits the shelves if at all, the 1DSV will be announced with an appropriate stable of new glass to match it's 30+MP sensor and brand new body design.

So as much as I hate to say it, I am concerned about the future of leica. People seem to think that history will continue to repeat it self...who in the hell says it has to? New times yield new results.

By the way, I am very grateful to be doing decent in light of the economy. The biggest reasons for this is that I have stayed out of debt, have avoided the stock market since 9/11, put money away and liquidated some luxury assets like the M8 that did not carry their weight in my tool box to further infuse capitol.

I am also protecting the pricey Kodachrome Project by keeping liquid...I have full frame film M's and Kodachrome to keep my R/F fix at bay.

Any new digital R/F can easily wait, I am not the least bit saddened by that....
Click to expand...

There is a lot of truth in what you are saying, but fortunately for Leica not all countries nor all income groups within those countries are hit equally. And being a small company the resources for R&D are probably better managable than they are for an industrial giant. Giving them a chance to forge ahead, relatively. They are catering to a narrow segment of the market, and much as we resent it, that segment is not so youngish professionals in health care, law, industry, etc. and similar groups. Traditionally customers that are less vulnerable to economic fluctuations. I am not trying to gloss over the black clouds here, but there is a possibility that the future is not as bleak as it seems for a niche company.
 
so far I know, 99% of Leica is not shares, stocks. So no worries.

Companies read reports also, not only guys like KM-25 and other "experts".
 
jaapv said:
There is a lot of truth in what you are saying, but fortunately for Leica not all countries nor all income groups within those countries are hit equally. And being a small company the resources for R&D are probably better managable than they are for an industrial giant. Giving them a chance to forge ahead, relatively. They are catering to a narrow segment of the market, and much as we resent it, that segment is not so youngish professionals in health care, law, industry, etc. and similar groups. Traditionally customers that are less vulnerable to economic fluctuations. I am not trying to gloss over the black clouds here, but there is a possibility that the future is not as bleak as it seems for a niche company.
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I think a lot of people hope you are right, my self included. But the reality is that mankind seriously lacks the courage to even imagine just how bad the result of our "Consuming" our way into this crises is going to get.

The balance is deafeningly fragile at this point...
 
What is going on is a really big upheaval I fear/hope...

Which makes some features on the M8 stand out, namely the modular build and the upgrade program...

This, and the compability with lenses down to the fifties, is actually sustainable development! Lets hope that this philosophy will become way more popular than ´consumerism´ ever was, and save the day!

Maybe Leica should project this part of its heritage even stronger these days, I am sure that long time reliability and sustainability will gain ground the next few years...
 
My guess is the "upgrade" program has gone as far as it's going with the M8, the previous CEO's enthusiasm notwithstanding. Leica needs to sell new cameras to stay in business, not mess with an upgrade program born from their lack of a completely new model to offer after three years.
 
jbf said:
better high iso ability and i'd own one (M8/9/whatever)
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If you are using an SLR high ISO is critical but the whole idea of a range finder is hand holding is easy at slow shutter speeds.
Add to this fast leica glass and quite honestly 640 is about as much as i need. If using a film M it would be maximum asa 400 film so im happy.
Of course higher iso would be nice if you can get it, but the M8 works pretty well as it is. The three things I find most annoying for me are the infrared filters 6 bit coding and the TTL flash performance.

Richard
 
What would really be interesting is how many people that have responded to this email string have or will purchase the next digital M?? My point being all of this conversation is just that... conversation! Look at it this way, if Leica told us tomorrow is here today and you could get the FF sensor, improved ISO's and more MP's for the bargain price of $6000.00 who's buying?? My assumption is NOT MANY especially when you think that worldwide only 20,000 M8's have been sold this far.

Let's try and be realistic, we complain about things like a $5.00 classified ad being too much and now we're arguing about a 5K or 6K camera?....come on. Earlier in this string there was a photo of a wood stove to demonstrate ISO performance, you think they have an extra 6K laying around for the new M9? They probably don't even own an M8. The majority here have gotten into the Leica thing via the used market because even the analogue M's are expensive. How many RFF's have purchased any of the new Leica lenses NEW ?? Summarits included, bet it's less than 5%.

By all means beat this horse to death, not that it already hasn't beaten to death in previous posts. If Leica could give us all the things we want in the next digital M it wouldn't matter, most couldn't afford it anyway. Time may be better served cruising the used market for a M3 DS or SS if you've got the money:D
 
sherm said:
What would really be interesting is how many people that have responded to this email string have or will purchase the next digital M?? My point being all of this conversation is just that... conversation! Look at it this way, if Leica told us tomorrow is here today and you could get the FF sensor, improved ISO's and more MP's for the bargain price of $6000.00 who's buying?? My assumption is NOT MANY especially when you think that worldwide only 20,000 M8's have been sold this far.

Let's try and be realistic, we complain about things like a $5.00 classified ad being too much and now we're arguing about a 5K or 6K camera?....come on. Earlier in this string there was a photo of a wood stove to demonstrate ISO performance, you think they have an extra 6K laying around for the new M9? They probably don't even own an M8. The majority here have gotten into the Leica thing via the used market because even the analogue M's are expensive. How many RFF's have purchased any of the new Leica lenses NEW ?? Summarits included, bet it's less than 5%.

By all means beat this horse to death, not that it already hasn't beaten to death in previous posts. If Leica could give us all the things we want in the next digital M it wouldn't matter, most couldn't afford it anyway. Time may be better served cruising the used market for a M3 DS or SS if you've got the money:D
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Leica is expensive whether film or digital. It will always be a niche market, but it has its old faithfuls and they will find the cash some how. I did by a new M8 3 years ago.I have started saving for an M9 and hope its not too soon. Meanwhile my M8 is producing great images and I certainly would not trade it for any SLR just for more pixels. Incidentally whats this about the wood stove? I have a wood stove. Its wonderful.

Richard
 
Richard,

Here again you and I are part of the ole faithful which is the 5% that I spoke about. As far as the wood stove I never said anything negative about it. My point was perhaps one was trying to save money by using it and therefore wouldn't think it a prudent use of money to buy a 6K camera. Nothing more than that.


Scott
 
sherm said:
Richard,

Here again you and I are part of the ole faithful which is the 5% that I spoke about. As far as the wood stove I never said anything negative about it. My point was perhaps one was trying to save money by using it and therefore wouldn't think it a prudent use of money to buy a 6K camera. Nothing more than that.


Scott
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Hi Scott

Agreed about the 'old faithful'. But this was also the case when it was only film cameras. Not many would pay £2,000 for an M body when you could get an SLR for £350 unless they valued the unique property of rangefinders. Its really not much different now. Leica makes a unique product which no one else is interested in and I think thats their best bet. The only real competition was Contax and I am still sorry the digital G series never happened. It could have been very very good.
I wonder has any one at all bought an S2?
Incidentally our wood stove is a constant pleasure. Its more aesthetic than economy.

Richard
 
Leica's battle is also heavily impacted by death. People who might buy a high priced, manual focusing M rangefinder are dying faster than they are being born now. When you sell basically the same product for 50 years, those demographics eventually catch up with you.
 
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