How long until we see a truly pocketable m4/3+ camera?

[shadowfox]

I for one am surprised that we haven't seen a GRD with 4/3rd sensor. To me, the combination of form and size and sensor seems like a no-brainer.

That's why I wish Ricoh would merge with Olympus, not Pentax.

 

[jsrockit]

I for one am surprised that we haven't seen a GRD with 4/3rd sensor. To me, the combination of form and size and sensor seems like a no-brainer.

I agree. I thought the IV would be the one. Maybe next time.

 

[Matus]

I for one am surprised that we haven't seen a GRD with 4/3rd sensor. To me, the combination of form and size and sensor seems like a no-brainer.

Would be great indeed, but the size would simply get considerably larger. In particular as the lens wold have to be small as it seems most consider f/2.8 too slow to look at on fixed lenses ...

 

[kuzano]

Sorry Projection on my part. Should have emoticon

Sorry Projection on my part. Should have emoticon

Which country and news stories have mentioned permits?

I am simply saying that I would not be surprised if we start seeing indications of "permits" for camera's just as we do for handguns. I'm sorry if the way you read my comment indicated that I had read articles to that effect.

Amazing how simple comments make many jump to the keyboard for "proof of documentation". If you continue to read my posts, they are, for the most part TIC. 😎😛

I used to be that way, until I started buying my skivvies 2 sizes larger, so they don't bunch up in my crack so readily.

Not saying you're suffering from that problem. OK.

What? no comment about my "overly large" equipment, which was one factor in the change to the larger underwear. I went to the doctor for severe headaches and unexplainable anger.... hence the prescription for bigger looser shorts.

It cost me a doctor visit. I'm passing it on for free.

 

[Godfrey]

I'd much prefer a full frame digital version of the Rollei 35, Minox GL or Olympus XA; complete with a bright line optical finder.

I don't see it happening though, unless Cosina move into digital.

The sensors are still too expensive, and the lens designs that work well on larger sensors prove challenging to make small like that. I'm happy enough with the APS-C sensor in the Ricoh GXR and Leica X1/X2, and I like that both of them allow either an optical viewfinder or an electronic viewfinder now.

The problem with making compact interchangeable lens cameras is the interchangeable lens mount and lenses to fit it. The problem with making all compact cameras is the ergonomics and control design.

I've tried to like the Oly Pens and the Panasonic GF cameras. Their ergonomics just hasn't done it for me. The Sony NEX ... same thing, only the 7 is close. The Ricoh GXR does well by me, both as a Leica lens system camera and with its fixed lens camera units. With the 28mm camera unit, it fits easily into my pants pocket. But I never carry it there the way I did an XA, Rollei 35 or Minox GT-E.

The Leica X1/X2 do ergonomics the best of any small digital camera I've handled. I played with an X1 again the other day, first time in a while, after having used the GXR for over a year and being very happy with it (and after playing with the X100 and not liking it at all). The X1 controls and ergonomics are simply the best in class, the X2 solves all the issues which stopped me from buying the X1. And it will fit in my pants or jacket pocket if I want to carry it there.

I love my Rollei 35S and Minox GT-E, btw. Still have them, haven't used them in a bit. The X1/X2 do better than they do on ergonomics too.

G

 

[f16sunshine]

Would be great indeed, but the size would simply get considerably larger. In particular as the lens wold have to be small as it seems most consider f/2.8 too slow to look at on fixed lenses ...

f2.8 would be fine. I think of the Contax T2 f2.8/38mm.
Why can't a similar lens be packaged with an APS C sensor.
Aperture wheel on the body. AE only and snap focus via Mode button.
Lens Collapses into the body while not in use. It's just a matter of time. Maybe Fuji will do it.
Fuji seems quite prolific in releasing new models.
Built in 32GB Memory with wifi or bt would save some space and clean up the body.

 

[steveniphoto]

they already have the pentax q which is most definitely pocketable.. i see it happening in a couple years. i bet panasonic will be the one to make it seeing as how the gf series only gets smaller and smaller.

 

[jsrockit]

I'm not so sure about lens size as a bottleneck... I mean, the MS Optical Perars are super tiny and fit full frame.

 

[rxmd]

I'm not so sure about lens size as a bottleneck... I mean, the MS Optical Perars are super tiny and fit full frame.

Yeah, but they're rather peculiar designs and not really for the pixel-peeping crowd, and if a GR-D is not good enough for you you should expect a lot of pixel peepers in the audience for a better camera and among the reviewers.

This will have to be an autofocus camera, and digitals have the sensor a lot further "forward" inside the body than film cameras (hence the extra thickness of the M8 and M9), and something like the Olympus XA would nowadays be considered a "big" camera compared to current smallish digitals. The Ricoh GR1 or Fuji Klasse are probably the best cameras to compare against. Even so, I doubt that there would be much of a market.

I think the compromise will be "somewhat larger" sensors below APS-C, like in the Nikon 1 series. The announcement of the Sony RX100 is a step in this direction, though it won't be pocketable enough for you.

 

[dct]

I voted "never"

I voted "never"

For me "pocketable advanced P&S" means a camera in the size of a Canon S100, with PASM modes, but sill very tiny to fit also a shirt pocket. I don't believe it will be technically possible to design a camera with this small thickness and lens around an m43 or greater sensor.

The arguments mirroring the film cameras like Minolta TC-1, Rollei 35 series or Minolta Vectis 300 (APS) don't get the point: They were not pocketable P&S film cameras. They were in the "compact brick class" like todays Fuji X10, Nikon P7100 or Canon G12, because the mechanics around the film transport didn't allow a smaller size factor. And today the sensor electronic and modern lens design still don't allow smaller form factors. I'm quiet sure the manufacturers will deliver similar sized brick gear with m43 or APS-C sensor size in the next years (X11? G13?). But this is not the "pocketable advanced P&S" size I am looking for!
After playing around in different stores with today's advanced compacts I understood there is no camera with bigger sensor and the small size of a real pocketable P&S. Full stop. Ergo I will use the really small advanced P&S as the "always with me" camera.
All bigger form factors are too much of a compromise to be useful for me. If I have to carry some sort of bag, holster, coat or whatever just to stow the camera, I will use my normal interchangeable lens film or digital gear...

 

[jsrockit]

For me "pocketable advanced P&S" means a camera in the size of a Canon S100, with PASM modes, but sill very tiny to fit also a shirt pocket. I don't believe it will be technically possible to design a camera with this small thickness and lens around an m43 or greater sensor...

Since none of us design cameras, I doubt we can say what is possible.

As for a market, why wouldn't there be a market for this if there is a market for the Ricoh GRD or Canon S100?

To me, this camera shows we are very close...

http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2012/...ks-a-zeiss-1-8-lens-and-one-inch-cmos-sensor/

 

[rxmd]

As for a market, why wouldn't there be a market for this if there is a market for the Ricoh GRD or Canon S100?

That is IMHO not a sensible question to ask, because the markets in question are overlapping, so the market share for those cameras eats into the market share that you are proposing.

The question one should ask is "What and how large is the segment of the market for this that hasn't already been cornered by the Ricoh GRD or the Canon S100".

As far as APS-C or Micro-4/3 or, God heavens, full frame sensors are concerned, I don't think such a segment exists. If you allow for smaller (and hence cheaper) 1" sensors, then Sony, Nikon and possibly Canon (according to rumours) seem to think that such a segment might exist. That said, neither the Nikon 1 nor the DSC-RX100 are exactly pocketable according to your definition.

 

[jsrockit]

That is IMHO not a sensible question to ask, because the markets in question are overlapping, so the market share for those cameras eats into the market share that you are proposing.

The question one should ask is "What and how large is the segment of the market for this that hasn't already been cornered by the Ricoh GRD or the Canon S100".

As far as APS-C or Micro-4/3 or, God heavens, full frame sensors are concerned, I don't think such a segment exists. If you allow for smaller (and hence cheaper) 1" sensors, then Sony, Nikon and possibly Canon (according to rumours) seem to think that such a segment might exist. That said, neither the Nikon 1 nor the DSC-RX100 are exactly pocketable according to your definition.

I'm thinking large sensor compacts will replace small sensor compact, not compete with them.

Also, miniturization occurs over time in increments, not in leaps and bounds. When I say pocketable, what I really mean is GRD sized.

 

[dct]

...
When I say pocketable, what I really mean is GRD sized.

I agree, you as the TO define the size limits in this discussion. Just to emphasize what I was looking for: All cameras thicker than 30mm are not well suited to carry around the whole day in a tight pant pocket. My argument not believing we will see a m43 sensor was addressed to this slim camera type. Of course, give them around 1/2" more and it might be feasible.

 

[jsrockit]

I agree, you as the TO define the size limits in this discussion. Just to emphasize what I was looking for: All cameras thicker than 30mm are not well suited to carry around the whole day in a tight pant pocket. My argument not believing we will see a m43 sensor was addressed to this slim camera type. Of course, give them around 1/2" more and it might be feasible.

True, I waver back and forth about true pockeability (meaning fits in front non-baggy pants pockets). I sometimes feel that less weight is more important than "credit card" style thickness when carrying something. I still think it will happen eventually... and people will buy it.

 

[muser53]

Is this the Sony you're alluding to?

http://view.bhphotovideo.com/v/B3GE5A/UC648/Q71N4Y/IYT20O/MAILACTION=1

 

[rxmd]

Is this the Sony you're alluding to?

http://view.bhphotovideo.com/v/B3GE5A/UC648/Q71N4Y/IYT20O/MAILACTION=1

Yeah, that's it.

 

[bugmenot]

... But this is not the "pocketable advanced P&S" size I am looking for!
After playing around in different stores with today's advanced compacts I understood there is no camera with bigger sensor and the small size of a real pocketable P&S. Full stop. Ergo I will use the really small advanced P&S as the "always with me" camera.
All bigger form factors are too much of a compromise to be useful for me. If I have to carry some sort of bag, holster, coat or whatever just to stow the camera, I will use my normal interchangeable lens film or digital gear ...

... If you allow for smaller (and hence cheaper) 1" sensors, then Sony, Nikon and possibly Canon (according to rumours) seem to think that such a segment might exist. That said, neither the Nikon 1 nor the DSC-RX100 are exactly pocketable according to your definition.

I agree, you as the TO define the size limits in this discussion. Just to emphasize what I was looking for: All cameras thicker than 30mm are not well suited to carry around the whole day in a tight pant pocket. My argument not believing we will see a m43 sensor was addressed to this slim camera type. Of course, give them around 1/2" more and it might be feasible.

If there is one advantage the RX100 has over any other large sensor compact, it is the size ...

And my personal favourite:

Just for the sake of portability, this is the camera I'd like to have on the side of my backpack or in my pocket wherever I go.

One other reason this appeals to me is the fact that I do not need to carry a lens cap.

On the other hand, the disappointing part about this camera is the lack of a "Smart Accessory Terminal", which is what Sony uses for their NEX accessory attachments, like the EVF and such.

I do not care for a hotshoe on a portable compact camera, what's the point ...

Here are a few reviews and previews:
TechRadar, Imaging Resource, and DPReview.

 

[Ronald_H]

That Sony looks absolutely killer on paper. Bigger sensor yet small, RAW support, good lens, good specs. HD video if you like that sort of thing. Manual control over everything, including focus. Sample pictures at ISO1600 look very convincing.

The only thing I would miss is lens speed at the end of the focus range, for the obvious reason of speed but also because of DOF control. For the rest this truly seems to be a silver bullet. Want one.

 

[jsrockit]

That Sony leads me to believe m4/3 isn't far off.