rvaubel
Well-known
I will start selling some of my Canon 20D stuff when the time comes. Don't get me wrong, nothing against the 20D except I have barely used it since getting my R-D1. I will keep the body, 70-300mm DO, 24mm TS , and macro lens for the specialty work that a SLR does best. But for the vast majority of the work I like to do, a rangefinder is best. I have enough Canon "L" lenses that overlap the M mount range to get most of the way $$wise towards the M8.
The fact is, I enjoy using fine mechanical equipment. The watch on my wrist is a Ulysses Nardin. My wife wears a Jaeger Lecoultre Reverso. I ride a 40 year old Capagnola equiped, Reynolds 531 double butted framed bicycle. My house was built in 1926 but I restored it, didn't replace it. I guess I could buy a throw away watch and relace it every few years . My Dad was kind of stupid to buy me a watch for my high school graduation that I've worn and treasured for the last 42 years. I guess I was kind of stupid to give my wife her Reverso as a wedding present 16 years ago.
Believe it or not, some things are worth having for the pleasure they give, for the memories they evoke, and for the utility that they engender. Everything does not need to succum to the desposable notion of obsoleteism so prevalent in todays throw away society.
Anyway, when I die I'll leave cooler toys to my widow. Your toys will be obsolete before your body cools.
Rex
In Bezerkeley
The fact is, I enjoy using fine mechanical equipment. The watch on my wrist is a Ulysses Nardin. My wife wears a Jaeger Lecoultre Reverso. I ride a 40 year old Capagnola equiped, Reynolds 531 double butted framed bicycle. My house was built in 1926 but I restored it, didn't replace it. I guess I could buy a throw away watch and relace it every few years . My Dad was kind of stupid to buy me a watch for my high school graduation that I've worn and treasured for the last 42 years. I guess I was kind of stupid to give my wife her Reverso as a wedding present 16 years ago.
Believe it or not, some things are worth having for the pleasure they give, for the memories they evoke, and for the utility that they engender. Everything does not need to succum to the desposable notion of obsoleteism so prevalent in todays throw away society.
Anyway, when I die I'll leave cooler toys to my widow. Your toys will be obsolete before your body cools.
Rex
In Bezerkeley
Peter Klein
Well-known
I am sitting on the fence right now. I am one of those people who just does better with an RF than with an SLR. So I *want* this camera badly.
On the other hand, $5,000 is an *awful* lot of money. I am not a rich guy. I'm not a pro who can depreciate the cost as part of a business. I am by necessity a bit of a bottom feeder when it comes to Leica stuff. Almost all of my gear was bought used.
There are now some indications afloat that if you don't pre-order now, you may not get one until 2008. Which means that if you want to wait for somebody else to be the guinea pig, you're going to wait a long time. This might be a good thing, as it will get past the initial returns and bug fix firmware updates.
As tempted as I am to pre-order, I have not so far. On the basis that the company that took 20 years to fix the M RF flare issue (and then charged for the fix) has to prove to me that the camera works in every way that I need it to before I'm plunking down that much money, sight unseen. Another is that I wonder if Zeiss will come up with a Digital ZM. If they do, I'd prefer the ZM viewfinder.
So I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet. I could simply continue to shoot film for important stuff, and use my Olympus E-1 for good-light pictures where I need the convenience of digital. I could get a used R-D1 or a new R-D1s from abroad. I can bow to economics and get a used or closeout Canon 20D for digital available light, and just bear with it until the situation becomes clearer. I could through caution to the winds and just buy the M8.
And I could continue to post indecisive messages to various photo forums, thoroughly documenting my inability to choose between several imperfect alternatives rife with unknown factors.
--Peter
On the other hand, $5,000 is an *awful* lot of money. I am not a rich guy. I'm not a pro who can depreciate the cost as part of a business. I am by necessity a bit of a bottom feeder when it comes to Leica stuff. Almost all of my gear was bought used.
There are now some indications afloat that if you don't pre-order now, you may not get one until 2008. Which means that if you want to wait for somebody else to be the guinea pig, you're going to wait a long time. This might be a good thing, as it will get past the initial returns and bug fix firmware updates.
As tempted as I am to pre-order, I have not so far. On the basis that the company that took 20 years to fix the M RF flare issue (and then charged for the fix) has to prove to me that the camera works in every way that I need it to before I'm plunking down that much money, sight unseen. Another is that I wonder if Zeiss will come up with a Digital ZM. If they do, I'd prefer the ZM viewfinder.
So I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet. I could simply continue to shoot film for important stuff, and use my Olympus E-1 for good-light pictures where I need the convenience of digital. I could get a used R-D1 or a new R-D1s from abroad. I can bow to economics and get a used or closeout Canon 20D for digital available light, and just bear with it until the situation becomes clearer. I could through caution to the winds and just buy the M8.
And I could continue to post indecisive messages to various photo forums, thoroughly documenting my inability to choose between several imperfect alternatives rife with unknown factors.
--Peter
pvdhaar
Peter
No plans to get one, because there's no way that I'll cough up such serious money for what's essentially a hobby..
Andy K
Well-known
The sensor size is important if you are going to use lenses you already have, because the DOF will be very different with a sensor smaller than full frame.
R
RML
Guest
If the reports are good and if the price ever comes to a level I can justify on top of the R-D1 I already have, then I'd be seriously considering at least trying out the M8. Many if's, I know.
JonasYip
Well-known
Well, I won't rush out to be first in line to buy it, but I'm sure eventually I'll give in and get one. But that's mostly because my RD-1 keeps me pretty happy already... otherwise I may have already pre-ordered it.
I really don't understand the people who compare the M8 with DSLRs. It seems that anyone who's reading the Rangefinder Forum would understand when and why we choose RF vs SLR handling, and apply the same reasoning whether it's digital or film. But whatever... for *my* purposes a Digital M would potentially be a fabulous tool.
(Disclaimer: I have a DSLR as well, and use it when appropriate. Heck, I even use film when it seems right).
j
I really don't understand the people who compare the M8 with DSLRs. It seems that anyone who's reading the Rangefinder Forum would understand when and why we choose RF vs SLR handling, and apply the same reasoning whether it's digital or film. But whatever... for *my* purposes a Digital M would potentially be a fabulous tool.
(Disclaimer: I have a DSLR as well, and use it when appropriate. Heck, I even use film when it seems right).
j
Gid
Well-known
Sensor size is important because full frame keeps the FOV of your lenses as they were intended - important if you like to shoot wide. That aside, sensor size (APS vs FF) is moot provided the electronics and software are up to scratch.
3 or 4 months ago I would have been a definite yes, but since getting into film in a serious way I've hardly used my RD-1, so I'm unlikely to drop mega $ on something I may not use. If I feel the need for digi RF then I've always got the RD-1 and its a fine camera, producing very nice 15 x 10 prints, but I do like film more
If I had $5000 that I could blow on a whim, I would definitely buy one because I like shiny new toys
3 or 4 months ago I would have been a definite yes, but since getting into film in a serious way I've hardly used my RD-1, so I'm unlikely to drop mega $ on something I may not use. If I feel the need for digi RF then I've always got the RD-1 and its a fine camera, producing very nice 15 x 10 prints, but I do like film more
If I had $5000 that I could blow on a whim, I would definitely buy one because I like shiny new toys
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Andy K said:
So what - don't you like photographic challenges? And if not you can open up slightly over half a stop, which is the difference.......
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Magnus said:
Buddy Magus,
I'm sure you'll be flamed by others over this post
I have a different answer: when I have mine we'll get together and I'll let you play with it and you'll be automatically converted!Andy K
Well-known
jaapv said:
Why pay $6500 for a camera that makes the markings on all the lenses you already have incorrect? For that money Leica could have done a proper job and made a camera full frame sensor. As it is it looks like they took the cheap option.
The $6500 will be better left in the bank for the next model in 18 months which will have full frame.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Well, these markings are pretty inaccurate, being based on 1930-ies film. Nowadays DOF is a lot narrower with new films and different DOF on modern lenses. And it is totally dependent on final enlargement and viewing distance in any case. So I fear your beloved markings are inaccurate to far more than 1/2 stop anyway. I must confess it is a long time ago that I actually looked at them.It seems the Canon marketing department has made a convert.....
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Andy K
Well-known
jaapv said:
I rarely look at the markings. I have used SLRs for three and a half decades so it is automatic for me to be estimating DOF as I adjust the aperture. Also if I choose I can check with DOF preview. But with RF cameras there is no such thing as DOF preview, so if you are trying to be accurate those markings are important.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
The economics are not as simple as that. It is reasonable to expect the M8 to depreciate 50% in 3 yearsif we look at other (semi) professional digital camera's, like the Digilux2 or Canon 1D series. For instance used Digilux2's have bottomed out at the 700-800$ mark. That is 2500 $. A film M body will depreciate 30% of 3500$ is about 1100$.
The difference is 1400$ So if you spend 500$ a year on film (I mean really spend, not what you tell your wife ) you are in the black with a M8. The worst case scenario is that the fun of shooting a M8 costs you 460 $ a year if you shoot just one film a year normally. And I do not count the time wasted in scanning film.
I said before: A car will depreciate by 50% in three years. Still they seem to be selling somehow.
The difference is 1400$ So if you spend 500$ a year on film (I mean really spend, not what you tell your wife
) you are in the black with a M8. The worst case scenario is that the fun of shooting a M8 costs you 460 $ a year if you shoot just one film a year normally. And I do not count the time wasted in scanning film.I said before: A car will depreciate by 50% in three years. Still they seem to be selling somehow.
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Andy K
Well-known
jaapv said:The economics are not as simple as that. It is reasonable to expect the M8 to depreciate 50% in 3 yearsif we look at other (semi) professional digital camera's, like the Digilux2 or Canon 1D series. That is 2500 $. A film M body will depreciate 30% of 3500$ is about 1100$.
The difference is 1400$ So if you spend 500$ a year on film (I mean really spend, not what you tell your wife
You also have not counted the time spent editing files in PS. Also the film body will not be superceded by a superior spec body, thus increasing/accellerating the devaluation.
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jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
I scan and PS my films now. That should be equal or better, as digital files are easier to PS in my experience.Sorry I edited after your reply.Why should I buy a superior spec body if I am happy with my current one?Andy K said:
hth
Well-known
I am on the fence on whether to get an M8 1-3 years from now, or if I should use the money (less needed) for upgrading my darkroom equipment to be more convenient for fiber paper use (processor, washer and dryer).
Even if I go for high end new darkroom stuff, I am not getting anywhere near the M8 in price and it will probably last a much longer time...
I just have to decide on what kind of output(s) I want, then the tools needed to get there becomes much clearer.
/Håkan
Even if I go for high end new darkroom stuff, I am not getting anywhere near the M8 in price and it will probably last a much longer time...
I just have to decide on what kind of output(s) I want, then the tools needed to get there becomes much clearer.
/Håkan
Gid
Well-known
I've already said why I will be unlikely to buy one. However, I don't think anyone has to justify why they want one and will buy one. Raising the usual film vs digital arguments won't change anyone's mind and are irrelevant IMHO. If you want one and can afford it then get it, enjoy and be happy.
Ash
Selflessly Self-involved
I'd love to splash out if I had the cash. But I don't. In the time It'll take me to earn enough to buy one, I'll have bought about 2 or 3 cheaper (sub-£200) camera bodies/lenses or maybe a used LeicaIII, and shot hundreds of rolls of film, and got halfway to saving to travel abroad.
I'd much prefer that, especially since the bad press people have given the RD-1, the Leica is bound to have some problems that won't be ironed out for a year or two.
That, and all digital camera's become obselete very soon - may as well wait until there's a digital plateau and cheaper prices.
I'd much prefer that, especially since the bad press people have given the RD-1, the Leica is bound to have some problems that won't be ironed out for a year or two.
That, and all digital camera's become obselete very soon - may as well wait until there's a digital plateau and cheaper prices.
R
Rich Silfver
Guest
I voted 'will get one sooner or later'.
I don't really have a whole lot of money tied up in M-lenses (got a 50mm and a 90mm - total investment under 1,000 dollars) so I won't be getting an M8 'to use my enormous collection of M-lenses - but I do see the benefits with a digital camera and it would simply be fun to get one.
Having said that I may just end up doing what I do now - only getting older M-equipment years and years after they have been discontinued. I guess based on how well the M8 fares when it comes to quality and long-term reliability there may be a chance to get one 2-3 years after its introduction for less than half of what it was new. If so, I may be there ready to pick one up. I doubt I can rationilze or justify getting a brand new M8.
If I were to spend $3,000+ on anything Leica-related at this time it would be an MP - but can't really justify that either since my M3 does everything I could possibly ask of a rangefinder camera (apart from internal metering which, granted, would be nice).
I don't really have a whole lot of money tied up in M-lenses (got a 50mm and a 90mm - total investment under 1,000 dollars) so I won't be getting an M8 'to use my enormous collection of M-lenses - but I do see the benefits with a digital camera and it would simply be fun to get one.
Having said that I may just end up doing what I do now - only getting older M-equipment years and years after they have been discontinued. I guess based on how well the M8 fares when it comes to quality and long-term reliability there may be a chance to get one 2-3 years after its introduction for less than half of what it was new. If so, I may be there ready to pick one up. I doubt I can rationilze or justify getting a brand new M8.
If I were to spend $3,000+ on anything Leica-related at this time it would be an MP - but can't really justify that either since my M3 does everything I could possibly ask of a rangefinder camera (apart from internal metering which, granted, would be nice).
nrb
Nuno Borges
the military are using hi-def film for critical purposes...