Ben Z
Veteran
jaapv said:
If only it could finish off my 135 film...300+ rolls of it in the freezer, paid for. Until I'm down to <20 rolls I'm not buying any digital camera that beats film
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Ben Z said:If only it could finish off my 135 film...300+ rolls of it in the freezer, paid for. Until I'm down to <20 rolls I'm not buying any digital camera that beats film
I'm down to five rolls of Kodachrome and ten of Sensia. Sold the rest.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
NickTrop said:
PM sent
rsl
Russell
Ben Z said:If only it could finish off my 135 film...300+ rolls of it in the freezer, paid for. Until I'm down to <20 rolls I'm not buying any digital camera that beats film
Ben, Why are you on here instead of out there shooting? Get on with it!
Ben Z
Veteran
Oh I shoot plenty, except 99% of it is with the 20D and RD1 :bang: At the rate I'm using film it'll take me a loooooong time to make a dent in my stash. Selling it is pointless, it's frozen but most of it outdated by a couple of years (about when I got my first digital . Most of it's pro film, so was $7-10/roll. Why I sell $2500-worth of film for $500 and then turn around and buy a $5000 camera is a discussion I'd rather not have with my wife
. Most of it's pro film, so was $7-10/roll. Why I sell $2500-worth of film for $500 and then turn around and buy a $5000 camera is a discussion I'd rather not have with my wife rsl
Russell
Ben Z said:Why I sell $2500-worth of film for $500 and then turn around and buy a $5000 camera is a discussion I'd rather not have with my wife
Well, I certainly can understand that.:angel:
nrb
Nuno Borges
On the other hand I may buy a digital Leica when it incorporates a full frame sensor so that I might use my 50s, 90s and 35s uncroped.
Ted Witcher
Established
I can appreciate the pluses and minuses of this camera, but I have a philosophical question: has Leica made a camera that is too valuable, too fragile, to use in the traditional way of rangefinder cameras? At $5000, how many feel comfortable taking the thing on the street or on trips to potentially dodgy places? Is the camera outpricing its usefulness? Plus, if I drop my M7 or bang it into something, I feel pretty confident that it'll keep working. I'm not so sure about the physical robustness of the M8.
In fact, I'd go further to say that the overall usefulness of the camera, especially at that price, is very small. There's very little daylight, HCB/rangefinder-style photography that you can't do with, say, the DLUX3 -- an incredible value IMO -- and once the sun goes down the M8 isn't that useable in available light anyway. If you were out in the street all day and all night, a DLUX3 and a film M with high-speed covers pretty much all of your bases. Maybe someone can explain to me a few significant daylight advantages the M8 has over the DLUX3.
In fact, I'd go further to say that the overall usefulness of the camera, especially at that price, is very small. There's very little daylight, HCB/rangefinder-style photography that you can't do with, say, the DLUX3 -- an incredible value IMO -- and once the sun goes down the M8 isn't that useable in available light anyway. If you were out in the street all day and all night, a DLUX3 and a film M with high-speed covers pretty much all of your bases. Maybe someone can explain to me a few significant daylight advantages the M8 has over the DLUX3.
Ben Z
Veteran
My homeowner's policy only covers photo equipment up to $2500 and they want $500/yr to write a separate rider for the M8, so I hear you when it comes to feeling uneasy taking it into certain areas...not to mention rain/dust/humidity, or having some airport security person fumble with it over a steel table and a tile floor. One reason even if they get all the glitches fixed I'm still debating whether I'll buy one. My 2 M6's and 4 lenses I normally travel with altogether cost almost a thousand less than an M8 body alone. Still, there's so little in common between an M8 and a DLux3 I wouldn't try to start comparing. I just don't get on with arms-length LCD-only AF-zoomers, though my wife loves hers.
cme4brain
Established
Ben Z said:
I understand the reluctance to spend $4800 on a camera, especially if it is hobby! Once you see the beautiful files out of the M8, you will be hooked. No more film, no more driving to a film developer and waiting days for the pictures to be returned, then digitizing the negatives! Ever since having the M8, I have not even looked at my M6 or Voigtlander Bessa R.
Turtle
Veteran
The M8, no way. If they produced a killer m9, maybe. I suspect however that I would end up not using it, preferring the look and philosophy that goes with film. The best camera leica have ever built is the MP...because I own two (MP and MP3) and do not intend to buy any more Leicas. La-la-la-la thats me finished, no obsession here, la-la-la-la.......ooooooohhhhhh hang on a minute............
Neville Porter
Newbie
Please take my comments in the spirit they are intented..good debate about photography ( I am not meaning to be rude)Magnus said:
In response to your comment it has to be said WOW for such a positive outlook why are you bothering on a rangerfinder site even wasting your time mentioning leica seems like your argument might suggest the answer lies with canon. You may know the great thing about coffee and photography is they have two things in common. They are hand (human) crafted and measured by (human) taste. Theres no perfect coffee machine or perfect bean but there are some great cups of coffee made all over the world. Human intervention between Coffee machine brand & bean grower is supreme. My point is there have been great photos with and without M8s and Canons but your argument ...?! . Dont forget when you dollars are quoted you are only quoting the little market of USA which may seem the world to you but there are other prices (in other markets) and the wonderful "second hand market" will recieve your second hand offerings with pleasure (discounted thank you) and at a different price point wonderful pictures will be created. Good pictures have no price. If your M8 is troubling you pass it along you will be suprised what some else can do with it and they do not care what you paid. By the way I agree its a great thing about Leica that the factory does do repairs. The only thing left to you is to take great pictures. Enjoy the adventure.
Neville Porter
Newbie
Well there is not a lot more to be said after your coments. Well done. Your coments are a wonderful "knit" of of fact an a a well developed set of opinions based on experiance. I am with you.rvaubel said:
PS It was only last week that I happened to take a family photo with my M7 and my son (18) said "Dad would you leave that camera to me". Well he is so cyber /digital bla of this age that I could have fallen over. Well he may be surprised. I am going to do what he asked and just incase he does not have film at this later time I will leave him the rights to my art photography (with first editions included) the M7 might be the paper weight but it will work when I don't and we will both be happy.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Fascinating ... I haven't looked at this thread for ages and couldn't help but notice that my vote was no. 4
I've had my M8 for a couple of weeks now.
At the time I made that vote it was the way I genuinely felt and I can't for the life of me remember exactly when I started to swing the other direction? I think that some of the stuff that was going on in various threads over this camera made me a bit anti .... and the whole mood was kicked off with the Seal 'Ascender' fiasco and it never really improved much in my opinion until recently.
It's a bit like the over hyped Hollywood block busters ... I always get to see them eventually ... but long after the media bullsh*t has avporated!
I've had my M8 for a couple of weeks now.
At the time I made that vote it was the way I genuinely felt and I can't for the life of me remember exactly when I started to swing the other direction? I think that some of the stuff that was going on in various threads over this camera made me a bit anti .... and the whole mood was kicked off with the Seal 'Ascender' fiasco and it never really improved much in my opinion until recently.
It's a bit like the over hyped Hollywood block busters ... I always get to see them eventually ... but long after the media bullsh*t has avporated!
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rvaubel
Well-known
Fellow M8ers
Its funny how much of a "legacy" camera the M8 seems to be already. Although I truly love the RD1's ergometrics, cool analog dials and all the other things that made my Little RD special, I hardly ever find myself using her. The M8 just seems to be so much more of a camera for keeps. As a tool it is wonderful but then so is the 5D. But I cannot even imagine an emotional attachment to a 5D or for that matter any other of the latest technological breakthrus.
The M8 is, in my opinion moving beyond its status as a tool to that of a cultural artifact, granted one that appeals to a rather select group of photography wingnuts. But I have been noticing more and more people on the street knowing what my M8 is. Knowlegable people seem to be more fastenated by the M8 as an interesting tool and not just an expensive toy reserved for doctors and laywers. While an old film M camera generally evoked a bit of bemusement at best, the M8 seems to be generating actual interest by those that are serious photographers.
I hope I'm right as the continuation of the rangefinder digital opens up a lot of photographic opportunities for many that would feel too encumbered by the shear mass and weight of a DSLR photo kit. Plus it reintroduces to many, the sensous qualities of a camera and lens that modern plastic examples are sorely lacking.
Rex
Its funny how much of a "legacy" camera the M8 seems to be already. Although I truly love the RD1's ergometrics, cool analog dials and all the other things that made my Little RD special, I hardly ever find myself using her. The M8 just seems to be so much more of a camera for keeps. As a tool it is wonderful but then so is the 5D. But I cannot even imagine an emotional attachment to a 5D or for that matter any other of the latest technological breakthrus.
The M8 is, in my opinion moving beyond its status as a tool to that of a cultural artifact, granted one that appeals to a rather select group of photography wingnuts. But I have been noticing more and more people on the street knowing what my M8 is. Knowlegable people seem to be more fastenated by the M8 as an interesting tool and not just an expensive toy reserved for doctors and laywers. While an old film M camera generally evoked a bit of bemusement at best, the M8 seems to be generating actual interest by those that are serious photographers.
I hope I'm right as the continuation of the rangefinder digital opens up a lot of photographic opportunities for many that would feel too encumbered by the shear mass and weight of a DSLR photo kit. Plus it reintroduces to many, the sensous qualities of a camera and lens that modern plastic examples are sorely lacking.
Rex
PeterL
--
Hi,
I've been saying that I'd never get an M8 and that was my vote in this poll, too. But now I'm swinging to the other side. I've been finding it more and more of a hassle to get film in a shop and deliver it there and then pick it up again. I get all my films scanned because it's much easier to share pictures that way (I'm using my PC every day and I can have lots of pictures with me on a pocketable 2.5" hard drive). So going digital for me is ultimately convenient.
Photography for me is "just a hobby" and I don't really take that many pictures since I started working again. So why would I get the most expensive camera on the market ? Frankly, I don't subscribe to the argument of "just a hobby". I see plenty of people spending lots more money on things that can be described on "just" something, e.g. cars are "just" transportation but many drive SUVs or BMWs when a small Nissan would do the job. The reason is, of course, that it's much more enjoyable to work with equipment that appeals to your personal way of working. That's what choice is about.
I found that I get much closer to people using my RFs. Particularly my Zorki is a favourite with my audience and people don't get nearly as nervous or uptight when I point that little machine at them compared to when others use a plastic P&S, let alone those really big DSLRs. As a consequence, both me and my audience are much more relaxed and the photos look much better. And I'm really enjoying myself using it. It's a small point, but the fact that the viewfinder is just a simple window to the world (not an LCD) and it doesn't black out (like SLRs) make me feel much more involved with the subject.
The disadvantages of the Zorki are the viewfinder (dim, a bit of a struggle to focus sometimes) and the film inconvenience I mentioned above. I have been considering a 2nd hand M3/M4 but I've got mixed feelings about it: I don't have M lenses at the moment, just 3 LTM, and I think the purchase of an M8 would be the perfect moment to start such a collection. The M8 seems to be just perfect for me. I'd like it to be smaller, like my Zorki, but for the rest it's an RF, it's fast and takes great pictures (both from what I've read).
Most other digital cameras just don't appeal to me. With a few exceptions, there's just 2 categories: one is tiny plastic P&S cameras without a viewfinder and that need 1000 button presses to change the diafragm in aperture priority mode. The other is huge and heavy DSLRs that weigh more than the rest of my luggage together (and that's only the body, then look at the enormous lenses !). I'm exaggerating, of course, but if I'm going to spend €1500 or more on a new camera system, I prefer to spend double and get something that I really love using each time I pick it up. My photography will benefit because I'll pick it up more frequently and because I love using it.
So my plan for the longer term (3 years maybe) is to get an M8 with a pre-ASPH 35/f1.4. The M8 is about €3350 in Japan and adding the lens from internet would total around €4000. The price to entry is a bit steep, but I'll start by saving up my €2 coins and in a couple of years, I should be able to afford it Possibly, in the meantime, Zeiss Ikon brings out a digital camera, too. Or, it's not beyond the realm of imagination that other camera makers could actually wake up to the fact that there's also a market for decent cameras in a small package. In such a case, I have more than one choice and I would not be unhappy that I waited before I bought a digital camera.
Peter.
I've been saying that I'd never get an M8 and that was my vote in this poll, too. But now I'm swinging to the other side. I've been finding it more and more of a hassle to get film in a shop and deliver it there and then pick it up again. I get all my films scanned because it's much easier to share pictures that way (I'm using my PC every day and I can have lots of pictures with me on a pocketable 2.5" hard drive). So going digital for me is ultimately convenient.
Photography for me is "just a hobby" and I don't really take that many pictures since I started working again. So why would I get the most expensive camera on the market ? Frankly, I don't subscribe to the argument of "just a hobby". I see plenty of people spending lots more money on things that can be described on "just" something, e.g. cars are "just" transportation but many drive SUVs or BMWs when a small Nissan would do the job. The reason is, of course, that it's much more enjoyable to work with equipment that appeals to your personal way of working. That's what choice is about.
I found that I get much closer to people using my RFs. Particularly my Zorki is a favourite with my audience and people don't get nearly as nervous or uptight when I point that little machine at them compared to when others use a plastic P&S, let alone those really big DSLRs. As a consequence, both me and my audience are much more relaxed and the photos look much better. And I'm really enjoying myself using it. It's a small point, but the fact that the viewfinder is just a simple window to the world (not an LCD) and it doesn't black out (like SLRs) make me feel much more involved with the subject.
The disadvantages of the Zorki are the viewfinder (dim, a bit of a struggle to focus sometimes) and the film inconvenience I mentioned above. I have been considering a 2nd hand M3/M4 but I've got mixed feelings about it: I don't have M lenses at the moment, just 3 LTM, and I think the purchase of an M8 would be the perfect moment to start such a collection. The M8 seems to be just perfect for me. I'd like it to be smaller, like my Zorki, but for the rest it's an RF, it's fast and takes great pictures (both from what I've read).
Most other digital cameras just don't appeal to me. With a few exceptions, there's just 2 categories: one is tiny plastic P&S cameras without a viewfinder and that need 1000 button presses to change the diafragm in aperture priority mode. The other is huge and heavy DSLRs that weigh more than the rest of my luggage together (and that's only the body, then look at the enormous lenses !). I'm exaggerating, of course, but if I'm going to spend €1500 or more on a new camera system, I prefer to spend double and get something that I really love using each time I pick it up. My photography will benefit because I'll pick it up more frequently and because I love using it.
So my plan for the longer term (3 years maybe) is to get an M8 with a pre-ASPH 35/f1.4. The M8 is about €3350 in Japan and adding the lens from internet would total around €4000. The price to entry is a bit steep, but I'll start by saving up my €2 coins and in a couple of years, I should be able to afford it
Possibly, in the meantime, Zeiss Ikon brings out a digital camera, too. Or, it's not beyond the realm of imagination that other camera makers could actually wake up to the fact that there's also a market for decent cameras in a small package. In such a case, I have more than one choice and I would not be unhappy that I waited before I bought a digital camera.Peter.
Joe Mondello
Resu Deretsiger
I actually don't recall how I voted in this, but now I am an M8 owner!
as the late Don Adams used to say "And loving it!"
as the late Don Adams used to say "And loving it!"
Ben Z
Veteran
cme4brain said:
I've used an M8 now for a day of shooting and seen the files. For my usage (occasional prints not larger than 11x14 and rarely more than 8x10, but primarily display on big-screen TV) the 20D's files are perfect and the WB and high-ISO are better and there's no fussing with IR filters. DxO corrects a lot of the abberrations (I don't own but one L lens), Miranda's actions sharpen perfectly well, I've got (35mm-effective) 18 to 480mm in just 3 not-so-enormous zooms, of which from 40mm up have image stabilization so I don't need to carry a tripod. The total weight of the outfit is similar to an M8 and half a dozen lenses plus a light tripod, and the most I can get there is 180mm effective (from the 135mm). I even have an eyepiece magnifier so the viewfinder is big and nice like the 5D. All for a few dollars more than $2000.
I have several hundred rolls of film in my freezer, plus I enjoy developing my own film, and am not in such an all fired hurry I couldn't wait for mail order. I always used to send my slides to Kodak and wait a couple weeks, it's really no big deal for me. But so far there's a good lab less than a half mile from here.
I already have an RD1 which I find perfect for parties and wedding candids that I'm often asked to do. The files are plenty big enough for what people want: small prints or mostly just to share via email. So for me, the M8 would be a huge extravagance. A toy, and indulgance. I do want one, but given the above I'm in no desparate hurry. I have zero interest in being a beta-tester, so I'm very content to take a leisurely approach to finding the right time for me to buy.
sircarl
Well-known
Peter,
I agree with everything you say... except the part about the "huge and heavy SLRs." Huge some of them may be, but an M8 actually weighs more than many of the newer DSLRs, like a Nikon D80. And no one would oblige you to use zooms if you had a DSLR. The prime lenses they take often weigh less than Leica's primes. So if you were to buy the same body/lens combination in a DSLR that you would normally use with an M8, your camera bag might well end up being lighter. I know, I know -- Leicas are "built like a tank" and that's why they're heavy. You'll have to decide for yourself whether that's sufficient reason to lug around all that weight. I actually would prefer an M8 myself, but not for any supposed size/weight advantage.
I agree with everything you say... except the part about the "huge and heavy SLRs." Huge some of them may be, but an M8 actually weighs more than many of the newer DSLRs, like a Nikon D80. And no one would oblige you to use zooms if you had a DSLR. The prime lenses they take often weigh less than Leica's primes. So if you were to buy the same body/lens combination in a DSLR that you would normally use with an M8, your camera bag might well end up being lighter. I know, I know -- Leicas are "built like a tank" and that's why they're heavy. You'll have to decide for yourself whether that's sufficient reason to lug around all that weight. I actually would prefer an M8 myself, but not for any supposed size/weight advantage.
nrb
Nuno Borges
Try to tell apart the same image taken with a M8 and summicron from one taken with a much lighter and cheaper Canon 350d and plastic 50/1.8.
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