How many of you will buy the M8 or Digital M

[paragon]

I have Pentax K100 which is great
I have just bought a Canon A640 which is marvellous
I have Fuji P&S which is just as good
I would love an M8 or Rangefinder Digital BUT the price?
I have about 30 film cameras, 40% Rangefinders and 60% SLRs
I use film but digital is taking over
I have no fixed views on film versus digital - but as each day goes by I prefer digital for its convenience and also you cannot reallty critisise the photo quality

My A640 cost me less than US$325 - 10 mega and it takes great photos - as flexible as anything around - I can buy one every year for 25 years for the price of ONE M8 plus lens - but I would still buy an M8 if I had the money -if I had money to burn

BUT - I will continue to but Leica film M cameras at great prices to fondle and use plus a digital SLRs and a Digital P&S, (they are NOT basic cameras NOW they have everything that a serious photographer needs).

Wash away all these illusions and recognise reality
The M8 is seriuosly expensive and the P & S cameras for $400 to $500 are almost as good and improve every year.

Cameras are about memories, taking photos, viewing them with family and friends, the A640 is great for that - a little more serious the SLR wins hands down

There are some great SLRs and Rangefinder film cameras out there at good prices - the digital will NOW dominate but there will always be a place for film to use and more so to collect. - whether the digital rangefinder will survive is a question - I applaud Leica for the M8 but maybe CV will produce a digital Rangefinder to compete price wise with the P&S or DSLR - if they do not digital Rangfefinders will die quite quickly.

Just my views

 

[flyingoko]

Ya, the crop factor is starting to die down a little bit as the reason for not buying the M8.

Rex

Hmm... For me, this is the essence of RF use. If I want a long lens, the crop factor gives me longer, lighter, cheaper lenses. I spent the day with my Nikon D80, zooming all the way out and all the way in - fine for taking landscapes and pictures of aircraft taking off, but not for decisive-moment people shots.

I must be able to use my Super Angulon as a super-wide-angle lens, and my 35mm Summicron as a standard wide lens. This is Leica territory, where the photo-reporter is in the thick of things rather than taking celeb shots from up a distant tree with an 800mm lens back-focused on cropping sensor.

SURELY it cannot be beyond the wit of sensor designers to develop a 1:1 sensor that operates within the film plane-to-lens flange distance of an RF.

As for the Leica being a minority thing: There's - what - a million or so Leica M bodies out there - how many would get a new lease of life with a tailor-made digital back?

 

[HAnkg]

SURELY it cannot be beyond the wit of sensor designers to develop a 1:1 sensor that operates within the film plane-to-lens flange distance of an RF.

As for the Leica being a minority thing: There's - what - a million or so Leica M bodies out there - how many would get a new lease of life with a tailor-made digital back?

You only need to look at the DSLR market to see what is or is not doable with 1:1 sensors. Short of some revolutionary technology designed for another application that by some miracle can be applied to RF it would seem it is way beyond the wit of sensor designers.

A million sales in the RF market? 20,000 would be a smashing success if we are talking about a product that could actually be produced in the real world and not a fantasy product made with technology that does'nt exist.

 

[flyingoko]

If so - that's sad. As far as I'm concerned, film is dead, and my three Leicas and 20 or so RFs of other provenance are just clutter around the house.

I've been hanging on in the hope that some enterprising innovator an enthusiast will spot this market gap and devise something to give the Leica M a new lease of life in the digital era.

The Leica M design is in my mind near enough flawless as a picture taking instrument. The mechanical precision, the superb lenses, the balance of it sitting in your hand, has not been matched in half a century (Nikon RFs came close!).

Is it a technology thing or a market thing that prevents a 1:1 sensor being fitted to a Leica M back?

 

[HAnkg]

The Leica M design is in my mind near enough flawless as a picture taking instrument. The mechanical precision, the superb lenses, the balance of it sitting in your hand, has not been matched in half a century (Nikon RFs came close!).

Is it a technology thing or a market thing that prevents a 1:1 sensor being fitted to a Leica M back?

I agree the film M was a great platform. But everything that gave the M (and the Mamiya M7 in medium format) an edge over SLR's in terms of IQ in film works against it in digital. The close distance between lens and film plane was a big plus in designing RF wide angle lenses. But digital sensors need the light hitting the sensor at a 90 degree angle. The small film to lens distance and RF lens designs means light is hitting the sensor at pretty extreme angles at the edges -not a problem for film, big problem for digital. This is why you get lens cast with some lenses on medium format backs and with IR filters on anything wider then a 35 on the M8. It's why you don't have a 24x36 sensor in the M8.

Considering the state of the art in current microlens/sensor technology the M8 is a pretty impressive engineering feet, but it is not a digital duplicate of the film M. However while in some areas it is worse in others it is better. Image quality in color is on a par with what I was getting with medium format color E6 slides and at ISO320 and 640 it's better then medium format color negative.

The ergonomics are light years ahead of any DSLR if your idea of ergonomic perfection is an M camera. Digital RF is likely to continue to lag behind top end DSLR's in terms of sensor size and resolution, however in terms final print quality the M8 doesn't give anything up to the best that Canon and Nikon produce. The price premium you pay for an M8 is much smaller then the diffrential between a Nikon or Canon prime lens and a Leica prime lens. While the Leica lenses are anywhere from 2 to 10x the price the M8 is the same or less then the prics of CaNikons top of the line DSLR's. An M8 with Zeiss or CV glass shouldn't cost any more then a Canon 1 series with L glass. Considering that Leica sells prime lenses at $3,000 a pop and an all manual film camera at an astronomical $3500, the M8 seems almost cheap.

 

[flyingoko]

The close distance between lens and film plane was a big plus in designing RF wide angle lenses. But digital sensors need the light hitting the sensor at a 90 degree angle. The small film to lens distance and RF lens designs means light is hitting the sensor at pretty extreme angles at the edges.

In other words, the circle of focused light on the sensor would be smaller than 24x36, even if that were the size of the sensor, come what may?

This is the nub of my issue with the M8. Because a 35mm lens becomes a 50mm, which in turn becomes a 75mm, the sense of the thing is lost.

Having said that, if someone were to launch an aftermarket digital back - even if not with a 1:1 sensor - I'd still rather buy that for my M bodies than a new M8.

Lenses I have - 21mm, 35mm and 50mm.

Michal

 

[nrb]

Dump the Mosaic Filter. Turn out a B&W version of the M8. Without the Mosaic Filter, the lens-sensor distance issue would not be a big deal.

That seems a great idea!

 

[jaapv]

In other words, the circle of focused light on the sensor would be smaller than 24x36, even if that were the size of the sensor, come what may?

This is the nub of my issue with the M8. Because a 35mm lens becomes a 50mm, which in turn becomes a 75mm, the sense of the thing is lost.

Having said that, if someone were to launch an aftermarket digital back - even if not with a 1:1 sensor - I'd still rather buy that for my M bodies than a new M8.

Lenses I have - 21mm, 35mm and 50mm.

Michal

In actual use of the M8 this turns out to be a bit of a non-issue, for various practical reasons. Rent, borrow or beg one for one or two weeks and judge for yourself.

 

[Joop van Heijgen]

I don't buy a M 8 camera because it is not really a M camera!

A Leica M camera has a mechanical shutter and is not depend on batteries!

The mechanical shutter of the M camera (M3, M2, M4, M5, M6) is the heart of this camera!

The M 8 has nothing to do with the above mentioned cameras!

 

[Axel]

...With the digital world becoming the mainstream, I am curious how many woll but this new digital rangefinder camera.

Hi,

no - I won't.

Actually my personal photography went back from digital to analog (where it was from the 1970s to 2000) because of various reasons (PC-use, AA-Filters, need to process, archiving issues, crops etc.).
So the reason is not the M8. At first I do not want to force digital in my personal environment anymore.
Actually. Sure - what comes next I don't know but shooting digital for around 10-20% is more than enough for me today.

If I were asked about the best digital rangefinder I could imagine I would like to have a digital back for my M. Sensor-size like film. No need for a display or any other gimmicks and, please, somehow affordable.

Regards, Axel

 

[kiwicafe]

Why?

Why?

In 2005 I bought a Leica Digilux 2, this was my first 'serious' camera for nearly 40 years, I spent a year shooting all over the American West and now I shoot in New Zealand. In 2006 I took delivery of a Nikon D200 plus all the new Nikon lenses from 10.5 fish eye up to the 17-200mm zoom. With both cameras I have taken 26000 shots in just over 2 years. I am selling the Nikon and have just ordered the M8.
Why?
I do not like, am not happy with the quality of the Nikon or it's images, they appear soft when compared to the Leica Digilux 2. It's all in the eye of the beholder folks so don't shoot me!
It is going to be a challenge to learn a new format, RF, shooting style but bugger me I am more interested in the final results, I will be buying the best Leica lenses money can buy, period. My artist friends only use Belgium linen to paint on, this will be my equivelant.
With the Nikon, or a Canon, the camera gets in the way of taking photographs and basically that is what it is all about. if I weren't a bloody gemini I would buy a 10 X 8.
I am quirky, I drive Landrovers and drink Espresso coffee out of glasses, I love New York and 'hate' the English, go figure.

 

[MartinL]

In 2005 I bought a Leica Digilux 2, this was my first 'serious' camera for nearly 40 years, I spent a year shooting all over the American West and now I shoot in New Zealand. In 2006 I took delivery of a Nikon D200 plus all the new Nikon lenses from 10.5 fish eye up to the 17-200mm zoom. With both cameras I have taken 26000 shots in just over 2 years. I am selling the Nikon and have just ordered the M8.
Why?
I do not like, am not happy with the quality of the Nikon or it's images, they appear soft when compared to the Leica Digilux 2. It's all in the eye of the beholder folks so don't shoot me!
It is going to be a challenge to learn a new format, RF, shooting style but bugger me I am more interested in the final results, I will be buying the best Leica lenses money can buy, period. My artist friends only use Belgium linen to paint on, this will be my equivelant.
With the Nikon, or a Canon, the camera gets in the way of taking photographs and basically that is what it is all about. if I weren't a bloody gemini I would buy a 10 X 8.
I am quirky, I drive Landrovers and drink Espresso coffee out of glasses, I love New York and 'hate' the English, go figure.

I'm new to Leica and M8. I appreciate others' photos taken with Leica glass (I'll be getting some over time, but before making purchases, I want to get a better sense of my M8 shooting habits and preferences). In the meantime, I'm much impressed with my own CV lenses. I don't have the same critique of Nikon/Canon SLRs that many have----especially in comparison to RF or Leica. My Canon glass is breathtaking and the zooms are incomparable. I have shots that no other format would have gotten for me. And I will continue to use my Canon kit.

On the other hand, when I have to pick up that 1D Mk II, life just sucks. Everything about the M8 is simply so much more of what a camera should feel like. It's a pleasure to carry out of the house every day, not the burden that the SLR has become. I get "different" shots because of the access to my environment the camera allows. Are they better (i.e., sharpness, dynamic range, bokeh, etc)? IMO, only prints of 8 x 12 and up will tell me that, and then, only over time. I've not printed yet.

Curious about the cafe part of your posting name. I roast at home and have a very decent espresso machine.
Martin

 

[Ben Z]

Is it ok if I change my original vote? Because I just bought one

 

[garethc]

Is it ok if I change my original vote? Because I just bought one

NO.

Once you have voted you can't change it.

So, you must send the camera back.





.

 

[Gid]

Is it ok if I change my original vote? Because I just bought one

Congratulations - I am sure you will enjoy it.

 

[madsolitaire]

I love both my Bessa R3M and Nikon D80. They are used for different occasions. Certainly, an RF is most suitable for street photography or when i'm bitten by the rf-bug (which is becoming quite often these days) while my D80 is used on occasions where i need continuous shooting such as animal photography (or even kids for that matter when they are running all over the place). And no doubt, a powerful zoom lens has its advantages as well. Guess i'm not prepared to part with my Nikon gear at the moment.

 

[HAnkg]

I love both my Bessa R3M and Nikon D80. They are used for different occasions. Certainly, an RF is most suitable for street photography or when i'm bitten by the rf-bug (which is becoming quite often these days) while my D80 is used on occasions where i need continuous shooting such as animal photography (or even kids for that matter when they are running all over the place). And no doubt, a powerful zoom lens has its advantages as well. Guess i'm not prepared to part with my Nikon gear at the moment.

For anything longer then 90, Macro, Tilt-shift and most things that require a tripod I'd use an SLR for evreything else I'd rather take the RF. As most of what I do is done in the range of 35-75 an SLR is reserved for specialty work.

 

[HAnkg]

I don't buy a M 8 camera because it is not really a M camera!

A Leica M camera has a mechanical shutter and is not depend on batteries!

The mechanical shutter of the M camera (M3, M2, M4, M5, M6) is the heart of this camera!

The M 8 has nothing to do with the above mentioned cameras!

It would be tough to design a digital camera without batteries

As to the shutter, I prefer to have the flexibility of being able to use any aperture I want even in bright light. As to whether it's an M. You can call it whatever you want it's the rangefinder and the small size of the camera that make M's attractive to me and the M8 has both of those. Whether it's film or digital or whether you shoot B+W or color has to do with your preference as a photographer -the camera has no opinion on those choices.

 

[mike_j]

I really can't decide and it's urgent. The price is soon going up and I can get a discounted ex demo one immediately but the deal won't last more than a day or so. On one hand I much prefer digital because I haven't got a darkroom and hybrid working is very much a compromise, I'd much prefer nice clean RAW files and I have spent many years with Photoshop and other graphics packages so it comes fairly easily to me.


On the other hand a 36exp film with dev and CD only costs about 5 Pounds (10 US dollars) and you can get a lot of films for the cost of an M8 at UK prices. Also I love the feel and handling of my M6

The other great stumbling block is the crop factor. My nice 50/2 summicron is effectively a 67mm on the M8 and as I like 35mm as a standard the nearest I have for this in equivalent terms is a snapshot CV 25/4 so I'd need a new standard lens around 28mm

Of course one answer is to keep both but divorce layers are so dammed expensive......

 

[Gid]

I really can't decide and it's urgent. The price is soon going up and I can get a discounted ex demo one immediately but the deal won't last more than a day or so. On one hand I much prefer digital because I haven't got a darkroom and hybrid working is very much a compromise, I'd much prefer nice clean RAW files and I have spent many years with Photoshop and other graphics packages so it comes fairly easily to me.


On the other hand a 36exp film with dev and CD only costs about 5 Pounds (10 US dollars) and you can get a lot of films for the cost of an M8 at UK prices. Also I love the feel and handling of my M6

The other great stumbling block is the crop factor. My nice 50/2 summicron is effectively a 67mm on the M8 and as I like 35mm as a standard the nearest I have for this in equivalent terms is a snapshot CV 25/4 so I'd need a new standard lens around 28mm

Of course one answer is to keep both but divorce layers are so dammed expensive......

hey Mike,

Buy it. If you don't like it you can sell it. In the meantime you're a long time dead

If you are really undecided then pm me so we can arrange a meet up and you can try mine.

Best.