How much developer is needed ?

[gliderbee]

I have a Jobo processor that I use to develop films (B&W for the moment; going to start with E-6 soon). I'm using a Jobo 1520 tank that can take two reels for 35mm; it needs 240ml with rotation-development (otherwise, I would spill over in the Jobo, I guess ?).

Can I develop two films in these 240ml or will the developer be exhausted before development is complete ? With inversion-development, I need twice that amount of developer (according to the text on the tank). I guess it also depends on dilution of the developer ? I'm mostly using ID-11 1+1 or DD-X 1+4.

Thanks,
Stefan.

 

[FrankHarries]

Hello Stefan,
you can use the 240ml with the processor - rotating doesn't need so much developer, 'cause you don't use the tank upside down. The amount of developer doesn't depend on the solution - time of development does.
Good results- Frank

 

[Roger Hicks]

Dear Stefan,

With most developers, the amount needed to develop the film is tiny: the remainder is there to wet the film quickly and evenly.

Consider a two-both developer. All the developing agents are in the first bath. About 25 ml is left behind when you pour it off, and much of that is wetting the tank, not imbibed by the film. But what is imbibed by the film is enough to develop it... Or consider a sheet of Polaroid 4x5, where a teaspoon of chemistry is enough to develop and fix the film.

There are a few exceptions. PMK may oxidize very quickly, and Xtol needs minimum quantities for reasons I have never been able to figure out. But with the developers you're talking about, at the concentrations you're talking about, neither oxidation nor exhaustion is a concern (source: Ilford). So as Frank says, 240 is fine (and that isn't just theory -- I use DD-X in my Jobo too).

Cheers,

R.

 

[JohnTF]

Will 240ml cover two rolls? I have used Jobo tanks, but left them in Europe in storage, many tanks tell you how much you need to keep the film covered, but 240ml seems small to me. I recall my Patterson tanks taking more. Just a thought.
Regards, John

 

[FrankHarries]

John,
as stated above - its different if you use a Jobo processor or if you use the turning-by-hands way. Then you need twice as much developer. In a Jobo, the tank is rotating all the time so that the developer doesn't have to cover the whole film.
Frank

 

[gliderbee]

Will 240ml cover two rolls? I have used Jobo tanks, but left them in Europe in storage, many tanks tell you how much you need to keep the film covered, but 240ml seems small to me. I recall my Patterson tanks taking more. Just a thought.
Regards, John

240ml fills the tank halfway; since it is on it's side in the Jobo, I guess it can't have more because it would spill over. So in standstill, the film is halfway into the developer, halfway out. With inversion development, you need 485ml to fill the tank and cover both films.

My question thus was if 240ml of developer is enough to develop two films at once without exhausting the developer and thus have incomplete development. Apparently from the answers, two films at once can be developed in 240ml.

Stefan.

 

[FrankHarries]

John,
as stated above - its different if you use a Jobo processor or if you use the turning-by-hands way. Then you need twice as much developer. In a Jobo, the tank is rotating all the time so that the developer doesn't have to cover the whole film.
Frank

 

[gliderbee]

I have the same tank. The 240ml only covers one reel. You can test this by putting some water in the tank with the reels in.

That is correct for inversion-development, but not for rotation-development.

Stefan.

 

[Freakscene]

Xtol needs minimum quantities for reasons I have never been able to figure out.

Xtol uses ascorbate and dimezone-S as developing agents. They are both in very low concentrations in the developer: there is 0.2 g of dimezone-S and 12 g of isoascorbate in 1L of Xtol stock. Some films have sufficient requirement for reduction during development that you can exhaust Xtol at 1+2 or greater dilutions when you only have 250-333 mL of solution in (for example) a 1 L tank - 62.5 or 83.25 mL stock/film. Some films seem to develop well at up to 1+5. To stay on the safe side Kodak makes the minimum volume recommendations.

Marty

 

[Roger Hicks]

Xtol uses ascorbate and dimezone-S as developing agents. They are both in very low concentrations in the developer: there is 0.2 g of dimezone-S and 12 g of isoascorbate in 1L of Xtol stock. Some films have sufficient requirement for reduction during development that you can exhaust Xtol at 1+2 or greater dilutions when you only have 250-300 mL of solution per film. Some films seem to develop well at up to 1+5. To stay on the safe side Kodak makes the minimum volume recommendations.

Marty

Dear Marty,

Thanks for a straight answer. Believe it or not I asked one of the inventors of the stuff and she did not give a clear answer like yours.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Rob-F]

Dear Marty,

Thanks for a straight answer. Believe it or not I asked one of the inventors of the stuff and she did not give a clear answer like yours.

Cheers,

R.

Sylvia Zawadski, right?

 

[Rob-F]

Xtol uses ascorbate and dimezone-S as developing agents. They are both in very low concentrations in the developer: there is 0.2 g of dimezone-S and 12 g of isoascorbate in 1L of Xtol stock. Some films have sufficient requirement for reduction during development that you can exhaust Xtol at 1+2 or greater dilutions when you only have 250-300 mL of solution per film. Some films seem to develop well at up to 1+5. To stay on the safe side Kodak makes the minimum volume recommendations.

Marty

A general rule is that you need 125ml of stock solution per roll with XTOL. D-76 is similar, though with different developing agents. So: let's say you wanted to use XTOL (or D-76) at 1:3 dilution. You can't do it in an 8 oz. yank because there would not be enough stock solution. But you can use 125ml of stock to 375ml of water to make 500ml, and then develop in a 16oz tank. For the Jobo tank (I don't have one, so don't know from experience) I would adjust the quantities in proportion, always making sure you have 125ml of stock. I don't know the minimum figures for other developers. Kodak's website has some info on this for their own soups.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Sylvia Zawadski, right?

I had quite forgotten her name but that certainly sounds right.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Freakscene]

A general rule is that you need 125ml of stock solution per roll with XTOL. D-76 is similar, though with different developing agents. So: let's say you wanted to use XTOL (or D-76) at 1:3 dilution. You can't do it in an 8 oz. yank because there would not be enough stock solution. But you can use 125ml of stock to 375ml of water to make 500ml, and then develop in a 16oz tank. For the Jobo tank (I don't have one, so don't know from experience) I would adjust the quantities in proportion, always making sure you have 125ml of stock. I don't know the minimum figures for other developers. Kodak's website has some info on this for their own soups.

Kodak's recommendation is that you should not use less than 125 mL of Xtol stock/roll.

I can successfully develop 4 rolls of Tri-X, Plus-X, Neopan 400 and several other films in 1 L of Xtol 1+3 - 62.5 mL/roll. This does not work for me with TMX, TMZ or Delta 3200. I do not have a full list of combinations, because I don't routinely use many films.

The main thing to remember is that if you want to develop film in dilute Xtol and you would like to develop in a way that means there is less than 125 mL of Xtol stock/roll of film, you should test first to see if it works. When it does not work, you don't get enough density, so it's pretty easy to figure out what's going wrong.

Marty

 

[JohnTF]

John,
as stated above - its different if you use a Jobo processor or if you use the turning-by-hands way. Then you need twice as much developer. In a Jobo, the tank is rotating all the time so that the developer doesn't have to cover the whole film.
Frank

I have only used the "old school" Jobo tanks, it is rather obvious now, but does anyone notice any results of the outer part of the reel moving faster than the inside? I had friends who obsessed about the evenness of agitation, and results were measurable, but not really significant in many cases.

Rotation development for me brought back the old time twisting with the crank. ;-)

Am certainly feeling out of the loop, though I do have a Jobo slot processor I used for Ra4. Another obvious solution it took a long time to arrive at.

Thanks,

Regards, John

 

[gliderbee]

but does anyone notice any results of the outer part of the reel moving faster than the inside? I had friends who obsessed about the evenness of agitation, and results were measurable, but not really significant in many cases.

Am certainly feeling out of the loop, though I do have a Jobo slot processor I used for Ra4. Another obvious solution it took a long time to arrive at.

I didn't really pay attention, but I didn't notice a difference between dev on the outside or inside of the reel. I'm using a CPP2, rotation speed on "P".

What's Ra4 ?

Stefan.

 

[Finder]

I didn't really pay attention, but I didn't notice a difference between dev on the outside or inside of the reel. I'm using a CPP2, rotation speed on "P".

What's Ra4 ?

Stefan.

Stephan, check your Jobo manual. IF I remember correctly, the "P" position is for paper and the "F" position is for film. The "P" may cause over agitation.

RA4 is the color print from negatives process--what I use my CPP-2 for.

 

[gliderbee]

Stephan, check your Jobo manual. IF I remember correctly, the "P" position is for paper and the "F" position is for film. The "P" may cause over agitation.

RA4 is the color print from negatives process--what I use my CPP-2 for.

I don't have a manual (I bought it S/H), but I remember reading somewhere that "P" is for 1500, 2500 and 2800 series tanks, giving a rotation speed of 75 rpm. No idea what the "F" stands for, although what you said seems logical.

If someone has a manual, he/she can maybe verify ?

Thanks,
Stefan.

 

[JohnTF]

I didn't really pay attention, but I didn't notice a difference between dev on the outside or inside of the reel. I'm using a CPP2, rotation speed on "P".

What's Ra4 ?

Stefan.

I had some friends way back, they spent a year shooting gray cards and measuring the results with densitiometers, to the exclusion of all other photographic pursuits.

Interesting, but lots of results and conclusions which changed a few of my techniques, but seemed more theoretical than practical. The outside of any rotational agitation system is going to get more motion, but perhaps the inside gets "enough" so it might not matter.

Hey, we did not have computers, so we had to find certain things out by ourselves.

Last I heard, the local High School had photography classes taught by anyone in the Art Department who knew little about photography, and they spent much of the year teaching how to load Stainless Steel tanks, because they knew they were "better".

Jobo made a lot of good and innovative stuff.

My friends concluded it was only possible to get the best agitation with sheet films by brushing the developer across the film. I Never tried it though.

Sounds as if you are getting results, and that's what counts.

Regards, John