Ken Ford
Refuses to suffer fools
I've always been a little unsure about the way some of the higher performance X lenses have the AF/MF clutch controlled by pulling the focus ring back and forth. I assume that in MF mode AF is completely disabled; I've gotten used to AF-S lenses with FTM and back button AF, tap the button for fast focus and then trim as needed.
How is the Fuji design to shoot with in practice? I wish they had stayed consistent across the line, switching back and forth between FTM lenses like the 35/2 and the clutched ones like the 23/1.4 seems like it would be disconcerting.
Which lenses have this feature? It's surprisingly hard to find this information!
How is the Fuji design to shoot with in practice? I wish they had stayed consistent across the line, switching back and forth between FTM lenses like the 35/2 and the clutched ones like the 23/1.4 seems like it would be disconcerting.
Which lenses have this feature? It's surprisingly hard to find this information!
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
I havent used the Fuji lenses, but I have a Tokina 17-35mm f4 ATX Pro-FX lens for Canon EOS that has the push-pull clutch for changing from AF to MF, and I don't like it. I prefer the normal switch on the side of the lens, like Canon uses on its lenses. The problem is, if you pull the ring to go from AF to MF, the focus changes slightly, so if you had used AF to focus, and wanted to switch to MF to keep the focus at that point, it won't work. It does with Canon EF lenses.
I know this is a use many won't use the AF/MF switching for, but I do it a lot, and I don't like the push-pull focus rings. Maybe Fuji's is better implemented so there isn't a slight movement of the focus when you switch.
I know this is a use many won't use the AF/MF switching for, but I do it a lot, and I don't like the push-pull focus rings. Maybe Fuji's is better implemented so there isn't a slight movement of the focus when you switch.
Ken Ford
Refuses to suffer fools
Hmmm. I just read that clutching the lens isn't enough to put it into MF, that you also need to switch the body to MF. True?
If that's the case I'd want to limit myself to their FTM lenses like the 35/2 and 60/2.4 (which was my original plan.)
If that's the case I'd want to limit myself to their FTM lenses like the 35/2 and 60/2.4 (which was my original plan.)
shawn
Veteran
No, pulling it back puts it in MF mode. The first version of the XP2 firmware had a bug that required both to be done by that was fixed in the 1.01 version.
Shawn
shawn
Veteran
There won't be a slight movement, there will be a large movement. The pull to MF lenses have a fixed focus scale on them to act like a traditional MF lens, even though the lens is still focus by wire. When you pull the lens back the camera will refocus the lens to whatever point the lens scale is on.
Shawn
shawn
Veteran
14,16 and 23mm. Look at pictures of the lenses, the ones with the pull to focus have a F-stop DOF scale on the barrel.
Shawn
Ken Ford
Refuses to suffer fools
Thanks, great information! I need to get my hands on an X-Pro2 and play with different lenses to see if I can live with the clutch arrangement. I'm thinking I won't care for it since it's not like FTM on a Nikon AF-S lens, but to be honest using them in MF most of the time has appeal, too.
shawn
Veteran
The non-pull back Fuji lenses aren't FTM like AF-S lenses either. If you are in AF you have a menu option to allow you to touch up focus or not. If that is off the ring does nothing until you switch the camera to MF. If you have that option on you can touch up focus after AF but only while you have the shutter half pressed.
The other option is when in MF on the body you can press AF-L to make the camera AF (like AF-ON on the Nikon) and the focus ring is always active as you are in MF.... but only on non-pull lenses.
Both the non-pull lenses and the pull lenses have advantages and disadvantages.
For actual MF I like the pull back lenses more as the hard stops are nice and you can easily scale focus them with the camera away from you body. You can also have some muscle memory in focusing them as you can easily go to either stop and then so much back to always hit the same focus distance. Fuji also made it so they will show the focus distance scale in the OVF/EVF on the XP2, it wouldn't on the XP1 which drove nuts as I like to scale focus through the OVF. Of course as they are wider they are easier to MF too as you have more DOF. On the flip side you can't back button focus AND MF with these lenses. If you have the ring forward it is locked in position, when you pull it back the camera sets the lens to whatever distance the focus scale is at.
On the non-pull back lenses the continually turning ring is a little more disconnected to focus with as they have much more throw then the pull back lenses. That is a bit more annoying at longer distances but an advantage when you are close up. I use a close focus adapter on the 35s and having the focus scale longer in close can be helpful.
Shawn
Ken Ford
Refuses to suffer fools
This is obviously something I need to try - thanks!
I think they are better implemented than the typical fly-by-wire manual focus rings of AF lens. However, maybe not as nice as a true MF lens.
Ken Ford
Refuses to suffer fools
I had a chance to handle a 14mm not mounted on a body. I don't know if I care for the push-pull design, but I need to try it on a body.
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
Ignorance here -- what is "FTM"?
shawn
Veteran
Full time manual. Nikon AF-S lenses can be mf at any time unlike previous screw drive lenses that had to be switched from af to mf mechanically.
Shawn
Shawn
Ken Ford
Refuses to suffer fools
... which is something I've gotten very used to over the years!
As I see it, I have three options for working with an X-Pro2:
1. Restrict myself to the lenses that do not have the push-pull clutch. Shawn's description above in post 8 is exactly how I use my Nikons when I mount AF glass - AF-ON with FTM.
2. Restrict myself to lenses with the push-pull clutch. Very limiting from a focal length standpoint and a big change from my usual method.
3. Use adapted MF lenses. I bet my 35 Cron ASPH would be nice, but I'd be giving up native lenses - and Fuji glass is very nice.
IMO option 1 is the only practical one. I'm thinking a classic M type 35/50/90 kit with the rumored future 23/2WR, 35/2WR and 60/2.4 would work for me and would all operate the same way. For me mixing the two designs would be extremely annoying.
I don't quite understand why Fuji wouldn't pick one design and stick with it! Very odd...
As I see it, I have three options for working with an X-Pro2:
1. Restrict myself to the lenses that do not have the push-pull clutch. Shawn's description above in post 8 is exactly how I use my Nikons when I mount AF glass - AF-ON with FTM.
2. Restrict myself to lenses with the push-pull clutch. Very limiting from a focal length standpoint and a big change from my usual method.
3. Use adapted MF lenses. I bet my 35 Cron ASPH would be nice, but I'd be giving up native lenses - and Fuji glass is very nice.
IMO option 1 is the only practical one. I'm thinking a classic M type 35/50/90 kit with the rumored future 23/2WR, 35/2WR and 60/2.4 would work for me and would all operate the same way. For me mixing the two designs would be extremely annoying.
I don't quite understand why Fuji wouldn't pick one design and stick with it! Very odd...
MCTuomey
Veteran
Have the clutch feature on two lenses, 23/1.4 and 16/1.4. never have used it during actual shooting. could be practically useful in really lowlight where the AF just hunts and you have to resort to MF quickly, but i haven't done so. X series AF ain't great, but it's good enough for what i do so that i rarely MF X-series lenses.
Fuji varies its lens feature sets a lot. for example, some have no aperture rings, some have loose aperture rings, some have firm aperture rings. a bit frustrating if you value consistency in use, yes.
because the lenses aren't small, consider a 2-lens kit. like the 16/1.4 and 56/1.2 which i carry all the time for lowlight and small club shooting. or the 23/1.4 and 56/1.2. or the 14/2.8 and 35/1.4 if you're a wide type.
Fuji varies its lens feature sets a lot. for example, some have no aperture rings, some have loose aperture rings, some have firm aperture rings. a bit frustrating if you value consistency in use, yes.
because the lenses aren't small, consider a 2-lens kit. like the 16/1.4 and 56/1.2 which i carry all the time for lowlight and small club shooting. or the 23/1.4 and 56/1.2. or the 14/2.8 and 35/1.4 if you're a wide type.
Jdi
Established
Here's a summary of the differences using collared and non-collared lenses. Go down to the 2 part explanation.
.*****************/threads/are-fuji-clutch-lenses-focus-by-wire-in-mf.50049/page-3#post-517090
I have both types and don't like the differences one bit. To the point I now split my lenses on 2 bodies and never mix when I'm shooting. A really poor implementation by Fuji.
.*****************/threads/are-fuji-clutch-lenses-focus-by-wire-in-mf.50049/page-3#post-517090
I have both types and don't like the differences one bit. To the point I now split my lenses on 2 bodies and never mix when I'm shooting. A really poor implementation by Fuji.
Jdi
Established
Sorry, apparently this forum does not allow posting links from other Fuji forums. Here's the text.
Here's a summary of the differences using collared and non-collared lenses.
"Sure - it's hard to have the cake and eat it too. Clutch-based lenses are different to operate because AF and MF operation as related to the position of the lens' focus ring inherently contradict each other. Contrary to normal non-clutch lenses, the 14mm, 16mm and 23mm lenses feature what's called an "absolute" position encoder to deliver their angular focus ring position to the camera's CPU (which then issues drive commands to the lens's focusing element).
In its MF position,
every angular focus ring position corresponds to exactly one unique lens focus distance, and
the focus ring features hard stops for its near and far focusing limits.
So, a clutch-based lens's absolute position encoder provides a position signal that depends on the ring's angular position.
Normal, non-clutch lenses don't have focus rings with hard stops and feature a different position encoder implementation. Their encoder doesn't provide an absolute position signal whose minimum and maximum values are defined by any hard stops. Rather, their encoder signal is relative to the position where the lens's focus elements happen to be at the time when manual focusing begins. Such a relative encoder simply records any focus ring motion in terms of direction and rotational angle into a number of "ticks" or pulses which the camera's CPU translates into forward or backward motion steps for the lens' focusing motor(s).
The contradiction I mentioned above is due to the fact that clutch-based lenses don't have a relative position encoder in the ring's AF position, and their focus ring is locked in AF position. It's theoretically possible to implement such an encoder, but that would require a second position encoder and a different clutch design (changeover between AF and MF modes would become a lot more complicated and even less intuitive), a different focus motor design and a different signal path design for encoder and focus motor drive signals. All of this would make the lens heavier and yet more expensive.
Nikon did something like this in their DSLR lens line, but none of their designs both using their "screwdriver" and ultrasonic focusing motor designs offer a convincing user experience. Either the focus ring has to move during AF operation in their "screwdriver" designs which bears the risk to damage the in-camera focus motor if you don't keep your fingers out of the way, or you lose the hard stops and the DoF scale as in their USM lens designs.
So, this contradiction could only be cured by changing the lens's internal hardware!
Continues in next post (I exceeded the post editor's max. allowed character count)..."
"Part 2:
So, after all these ramblings, how can we best use Fuiji's clutch-based lenses based on the existing hardware and firmware? Let's take a look at how the camera/lens combo behaves if you have a clutch-based lens attached, and AF+MF plus Focus Check are enabled (my description relates to the X-T1's firmware, and to some aspects of the X-T10 and X-E2. Neither the X-T10 nor the X-E2 feature Dual Display EVF mode. Please correct me if there's a mistake or discrepancy in any of the descriptions below, particularly in reference to the X-T10 and X-E2):
1) Clutch in AF position, MCS rotary switch on camera body on S:
AF-L button function is available w/ full functional scope: On while pressing or toggle-switch operation. Pressing AF-L will start an AF run and lock focus (green AF frame indicates locked state).
Focus Assist button can access focus magnification if Focus Check is On and focus has been locked; neither focus peaking nor split-image assist functions are available - you're limited to basic ground-glass focus magnification (typical for normal AF-S operation)
2 EVF display modes available: Full and normal
Since the focus ring is locked, you cannot use the AF+MF function.
2) Clutch in AF position, MCS rotary switch on camera body on C:
As above, but Focus Assist button won't provide focus magnification.
So, this combination of settings doesn't offer any practical value.
3) Clutch in AF position, MCS rotary switch on camera body on M:
· 3 EVF display modes available: Full, Normal and Dual *
· No AF function available, neither via shutter button half-press nor via AF-L button.
· No focus tweaking as focus ring is locked
So, this combination of settings doesn't offer any practical value.
4) Clutch in MF position, MCS rotary switch on camera body on S:
2 EVF display modes available: Full and Normal *
AF-L button is disabled (this could be changed in firmware, but would probably require a major software re-write because of EVF display modes, see further down)
Lens will perform an AF run on half-pressing the shutter button (AF-L button isn't needed!), and you can manually tweak focus via focus ring while you keep the shutter button half-depressed.
Manual focus tweaking will be done while the lens is stopped down to its manually defined or automatically determined working aperture.
Focus magnification kicks in automatically if you turn the focus ring (remember, AF+MF and Focus Check are enabled).
Focus Assist button is disabled, but isn't needed anyway as Focus Check is enabled.
Focus distance setting bis lost as soon as you let go of the shutter button. Thus, you a) need to proceed directly to triggering the shutter after focusing, b ) you can't revert to normal EVF magnification before taking your shot, and c ) you need to position your AF frame before you start focusing as focusing and reframing is impossible because it would require to go back to an un-magnified EVF display.
5) Clutch in MF position, MCS rotary switch on camera body on S:
As in 6) below
So, this combination of settings doesn't offer any practical value.
6) Clutch in MF position, MCS rotary switch on camera body on M:
3 EVF display modes available: Full, Normal and Dual *
AF-L button is disabled (this could be changed in firmware, but would probably require a major software re-write because of EVF display modes, see further down)
Lens will be focused manually while the lens' aperture is wide open (i.e. minimal DoF)
Focus magnification kicks in automatically if you turn the focus ring (rememberFocus Check is enabled).
You revert to normal un-magnified EVF display by pressing Focus Assist; if you turn the focus ring, magnification will kick in again. This lets you manually focus the lens, and allows you to use focus & recompose.
On half-pressing the shutter button, the lens will stop down to its manually defined or automatically determined working aperture, so you can check DoF.
Focus distance will be retained as long as you don't touch the focus ring. This also holds true if you half-press the shutter button, of if you switch off your camera and power it up again.
Summary:
Use scenario 1) for wide angle lenses at medium to far distances. This scenario doesn't require much thought and can be used when handing thze camera to someone else.
Use scenario 4) for longer focal lengths or for macro shots that don't require focusing/recomposing. Position the AF frame to a desired location before focusing.
Use scenario 6) for all focal lengths in landscape photography, for wide angle photography and for macro photography if you have the time and/or need careful setups.
* Two comments (this could be a firmware bug, or at least an opportunity to improve camera firmware):
There seems to be a software relationship between the function of the AF-L button and the EVF display modes for manual focus mode - they are mutually exclusive.
Another firmware dependent interrelation appears to be between the focus ring position and the focusing modes of the MCS switch: Dual-display EVF mode is only available if both the focus ring and the MCS switch are set to MF; if the MCS switch is on S while the focusing ring is in MF mode, then Dual Display mode isn't available although you're still essentially in MF mode. This is somewhat of a pity because if you previously had selected split-image focusing in the M position of the MCS switch and then change to the S position of the MCS switch, then focus magnification won't display a split-image, but will revert back to standard magnification Thus, split-image isn't available when trying to use the AF+MF function when the MCS switch is in its S position (BTW, this also happens if I use a non-clutch lens)."
Here's a summary of the differences using collared and non-collared lenses.
"Sure - it's hard to have the cake and eat it too. Clutch-based lenses are different to operate because AF and MF operation as related to the position of the lens' focus ring inherently contradict each other. Contrary to normal non-clutch lenses, the 14mm, 16mm and 23mm lenses feature what's called an "absolute" position encoder to deliver their angular focus ring position to the camera's CPU (which then issues drive commands to the lens's focusing element).
In its MF position,
every angular focus ring position corresponds to exactly one unique lens focus distance, and
the focus ring features hard stops for its near and far focusing limits.
So, a clutch-based lens's absolute position encoder provides a position signal that depends on the ring's angular position.
Normal, non-clutch lenses don't have focus rings with hard stops and feature a different position encoder implementation. Their encoder doesn't provide an absolute position signal whose minimum and maximum values are defined by any hard stops. Rather, their encoder signal is relative to the position where the lens's focus elements happen to be at the time when manual focusing begins. Such a relative encoder simply records any focus ring motion in terms of direction and rotational angle into a number of "ticks" or pulses which the camera's CPU translates into forward or backward motion steps for the lens' focusing motor(s).
The contradiction I mentioned above is due to the fact that clutch-based lenses don't have a relative position encoder in the ring's AF position, and their focus ring is locked in AF position. It's theoretically possible to implement such an encoder, but that would require a second position encoder and a different clutch design (changeover between AF and MF modes would become a lot more complicated and even less intuitive), a different focus motor design and a different signal path design for encoder and focus motor drive signals. All of this would make the lens heavier and yet more expensive.
Nikon did something like this in their DSLR lens line, but none of their designs both using their "screwdriver" and ultrasonic focusing motor designs offer a convincing user experience. Either the focus ring has to move during AF operation in their "screwdriver" designs which bears the risk to damage the in-camera focus motor if you don't keep your fingers out of the way, or you lose the hard stops and the DoF scale as in their USM lens designs.
So, this contradiction could only be cured by changing the lens's internal hardware!
Continues in next post (I exceeded the post editor's max. allowed character count)..."
"Part 2:
So, after all these ramblings, how can we best use Fuiji's clutch-based lenses based on the existing hardware and firmware? Let's take a look at how the camera/lens combo behaves if you have a clutch-based lens attached, and AF+MF plus Focus Check are enabled (my description relates to the X-T1's firmware, and to some aspects of the X-T10 and X-E2. Neither the X-T10 nor the X-E2 feature Dual Display EVF mode. Please correct me if there's a mistake or discrepancy in any of the descriptions below, particularly in reference to the X-T10 and X-E2):
1) Clutch in AF position, MCS rotary switch on camera body on S:
AF-L button function is available w/ full functional scope: On while pressing or toggle-switch operation. Pressing AF-L will start an AF run and lock focus (green AF frame indicates locked state).
Focus Assist button can access focus magnification if Focus Check is On and focus has been locked; neither focus peaking nor split-image assist functions are available - you're limited to basic ground-glass focus magnification (typical for normal AF-S operation)
2 EVF display modes available: Full and normal
Since the focus ring is locked, you cannot use the AF+MF function.
2) Clutch in AF position, MCS rotary switch on camera body on C:
As above, but Focus Assist button won't provide focus magnification.
So, this combination of settings doesn't offer any practical value.
3) Clutch in AF position, MCS rotary switch on camera body on M:
· 3 EVF display modes available: Full, Normal and Dual *
· No AF function available, neither via shutter button half-press nor via AF-L button.
· No focus tweaking as focus ring is locked
So, this combination of settings doesn't offer any practical value.
4) Clutch in MF position, MCS rotary switch on camera body on S:
2 EVF display modes available: Full and Normal *
AF-L button is disabled (this could be changed in firmware, but would probably require a major software re-write because of EVF display modes, see further down)
Lens will perform an AF run on half-pressing the shutter button (AF-L button isn't needed!), and you can manually tweak focus via focus ring while you keep the shutter button half-depressed.
Manual focus tweaking will be done while the lens is stopped down to its manually defined or automatically determined working aperture.
Focus magnification kicks in automatically if you turn the focus ring (remember, AF+MF and Focus Check are enabled).
Focus Assist button is disabled, but isn't needed anyway as Focus Check is enabled.
Focus distance setting bis lost as soon as you let go of the shutter button. Thus, you a) need to proceed directly to triggering the shutter after focusing, b ) you can't revert to normal EVF magnification before taking your shot, and c ) you need to position your AF frame before you start focusing as focusing and reframing is impossible because it would require to go back to an un-magnified EVF display.
5) Clutch in MF position, MCS rotary switch on camera body on S:
As in 6) below
So, this combination of settings doesn't offer any practical value.
6) Clutch in MF position, MCS rotary switch on camera body on M:
3 EVF display modes available: Full, Normal and Dual *
AF-L button is disabled (this could be changed in firmware, but would probably require a major software re-write because of EVF display modes, see further down)
Lens will be focused manually while the lens' aperture is wide open (i.e. minimal DoF)
Focus magnification kicks in automatically if you turn the focus ring (rememberFocus Check is enabled).
You revert to normal un-magnified EVF display by pressing Focus Assist; if you turn the focus ring, magnification will kick in again. This lets you manually focus the lens, and allows you to use focus & recompose.
On half-pressing the shutter button, the lens will stop down to its manually defined or automatically determined working aperture, so you can check DoF.
Focus distance will be retained as long as you don't touch the focus ring. This also holds true if you half-press the shutter button, of if you switch off your camera and power it up again.
Summary:
Use scenario 1) for wide angle lenses at medium to far distances. This scenario doesn't require much thought and can be used when handing thze camera to someone else.
Use scenario 4) for longer focal lengths or for macro shots that don't require focusing/recomposing. Position the AF frame to a desired location before focusing.
Use scenario 6) for all focal lengths in landscape photography, for wide angle photography and for macro photography if you have the time and/or need careful setups.
* Two comments (this could be a firmware bug, or at least an opportunity to improve camera firmware):
There seems to be a software relationship between the function of the AF-L button and the EVF display modes for manual focus mode - they are mutually exclusive.
Another firmware dependent interrelation appears to be between the focus ring position and the focusing modes of the MCS switch: Dual-display EVF mode is only available if both the focus ring and the MCS switch are set to MF; if the MCS switch is on S while the focusing ring is in MF mode, then Dual Display mode isn't available although you're still essentially in MF mode. This is somewhat of a pity because if you previously had selected split-image focusing in the M position of the MCS switch and then change to the S position of the MCS switch, then focus magnification won't display a split-image, but will revert back to standard magnification Thus, split-image isn't available when trying to use the AF+MF function when the MCS switch is in its S position (BTW, this also happens if I use a non-clutch lens)."
Ken Ford
Refuses to suffer fools
Great info - thanks!!!
shawn
Veteran
In my case I have a combination of screw drive and AF-S lenses so I never really took on the FTM function of the AFS lenses. Just AF-ON to focus (always on AF-C) and then recomposed as needed with my D700.
The XP1 (and later XP2) is a different type of camera compared to the D700. It can't shoot exactly the same way as the D700 so I had to adapt my style somewhat. Took a little while to adapt but is doable. I even changed shooting eye.
Shawn
shawn
Veteran
Certainly not great with the XP1 but the XP2 is getting pretty close to great IMO. The more I use it in different situations the more it is clear it will handle all of my needs.
It is now to the point that I've decided to get out of FF Nikon and sell my D700 and most of my Nikon glass.
Shawn