how to improve?

nico said:
Looking at others' (pro or not) work surely helps improving , but I'd like to have someone, more expert than me, who tells me what's wrong or right in the shots I take.
Maybe Rob's idea is a little bit complicated for the forum ( in general I mean, not Rff in particular) but something like that would work fine for me ...
Click to expand...


Nico,

I do agree that studying the work of others is helpful, and also used to think that someone "better" than me could tell me what was wrong with my work. I even ran a camera club that had "experts" come along and critique members shots once a month. However, I gradually realised there is a possible flaw here - who is to say what is good or bad? At the end of the day opinion is always subjective and will be different every time you ask a new person.

Who could say what is a good picture? Is Ansel Adams good because of the technical effort that went into the zone system to produce the final print, but someone else's result bad because thay have chosen to use selective focus and unusual levels of contrast (check out Susan Burnstien's work - which is great IMO) or "difficult" subjects (e.g. Mapplethorpe). If that were the case, why would Lensbabies be so popular?

I think we need to be careful when asking for absolute judgement - comment on technical aspects can be useful only if we all agree on a single set of standards, which I think unlikely, and have decided that we are pursuing that definition of technical excellence. Should we follow the "soot & whitewash" semi-abstract of Brandt, or the gritty realism of Weegee, or some other?

For me photography is about expression and feeling - I would find it much better to simply say if we like something and, only possibly, why.
 
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I agree that subjecting your own work to the critique of others - particularly others who are better photographers than you - can be very useful. The ruthless critique of much better photographers than me has definitely helped me in looking at my own work. However, there are certainly limits to the utility of this sort of critique (see for example the recent thread about HCB getting deleted from flickr).

For me, the most useful critiques are often those that call attention to all of the choices that I made - consciously or not - in a particular photograph. I think that the key to improving one's photography is being aware of the choices that one makes and learning to make more and more of them consciously. All of the suggestions about shooting in different formats and pushing one's boundaries are related in that they all force you to step outside of your current "style." For some, that style is very consciously chosen. But for others - and this was certainly the case for me - that style can simply be the result of the choices that we unwittingly make on a consistent basis. These choices can be technical (eg. always freezing action with a fast shutter speed) or they can be artistic (eg. similar compositions or subject matters).

Before we can talk about improving our photography, we need to understand what we mean by a "better" photographer. For me, a really good photographer is one who can effectively communicate his or her vision through photographs. The vision determines the photographic choices, not the other way around. In my case, I had to go to school to begin to learn about the photographic choices I was making and the choices that I could have made instead. Obviously, this route is not for everyone. But I think that the basic approach to becoming a better photographer probably is.
 
Rafael said:
Before we can talk about improving our photography, we need to understand what we mean by a "better" photographer. For me, a really good photographer is one who can effectively communicate his or her vision through photographs. The vision determines the photographic choices, not the other way around. In my case, I had to go to school to begin to learn about the photographic choices I was making and the choices that I could have made instead. Obviously, this route is not for everyone. But I think that the basic approach to becoming a better photographer probably is.
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I agree with this wholeheartedly - the camera is the means not the end.


Perhaps as well we should have a section in the gallery or forums asking for a critique rather than a 'rate my photo'. You could post a photo write a little about it and what you intended and then invite others to comment upon your work.
 
For a sustained year now the first thing on my mind every morning has been:

I don't have time to lay in this bed. I have to get to the darkroom and run my film.

I even dream about photography. I had a dream last night in which I was trying various dilutions of kodalith for a particular print. And when I drive in my car or ride the bus, my mind wanders to what I want to shoot next. I build a vision in my head and revise it, changing the plan until I understand what I'm trying to say as an artist. Then I record it to film.

There's a feedback cycle at work here: the harder I work, the more I improve, and the more I improve, the harder I work. When I look back at my prints from 6 months ago and notice how much better I've gotten, I gleefully redouble my efforts. Maybe I'm experiencing the elusive energy of youth, I don't know. But I'm certain I'd never have gotten myself into this positive feedback loop if I hadn't taken my work seriously, or if I hadn't received serious formal in-person critique.

It isn't enough to shoot, shoot, shoot. Photographers need to stop and audit themselves very critically. What am I shooting? More importantly, why am I shooting it?

It's much harder to develop a voice than to develop your technique. The voice, I think, is the stronger of the two virtues.


🙂
 
Nice idea. Something I'd like to try is loading 100-125ASA BW film, setting the shutter to f/60, aperture to f/8 and shooting without worrying about the exposure. Reason: I find myself overly concerned about "proper" exposure, contrast, etc. I think this exercise could free me up from excessive technical thinking, and get more into an expressive mode, regardless of results. Composition would be foremost, with a kind of "well, let's see what happens" approach.....perhaps deliberate "mistakes" are kinda cool.....

Anyway, I like your idea.

Chris
canonetc
 
Jon Claremont said:
Take the photographs you want. Not the photographs other people want.

After a while, maybe a long while, people will stop telling you about the pretty little church in a nearby town and realise that you take photographs of derelict rat-infested buildings. Or whatever.

Sadly many people think that cameras are for summer months only, big smiles from family and friends looking into the camera, a blue sky, and a pretty background. Idiots.

If you are worried (and I think you may be) that your photos of 'lots of people in a small crowded place' don't attract comments then make the pictures edgier. You'll get comments, although not popularity from the majority. Their loss.

You are not the court jester who has to amuse and please everybody to order.
Click to expand...
Such goodgood advice, Jon.
 
A very interesting thread, also there's am exercise that helped me a lot, instead of holding your camera hold a black frame, normal picture size frame, and look to the world through this frame, you know play agmes, like what kids do, this gives a chance for some reflection, gives time to observe and to think liberally of what would you like to ahve within that frame, without the pressure of clicking the button.
 
nomade said:
A very interesting thread, also there's am exercise that helped me a lot, instead of holding your camera hold a black frame, normal picture size frame, and look to the world through this frame, you know play agmes, like what kids do, this gives a chance for some reflection, gives time to observe and to think liberally of what would you like to ahve within that frame, without the pressure of clicking the button.
Click to expand...
An empty slide mount will do, can be carried in a pocket, doesn't flop in the wind, and has the perfect aspect ratio for 35mm film
 
john neal said:
Nico,

I do agree that studying the work of others is helpful, and also used to think that someone "better" than me could tell me what was wrong with my work. I even ran a camera club that had "experts" come along and critique members shots once a month. However, I gradually realised there is a possible flaw here - who is to say what is good or bad? At the end of the day opinion is always subjective and will be different every time you ask a new person.

Who could say what is a good picture? Is Ansel Adams good because of the technical effort that went into the zone system to produce the final print, but someone else's result bad because thay have chosen to use selective focus and unusual levels of contrast (check out Susan Burnstien's work - which is great IMO) or "difficult" subjects (e.g. Mapplethorpe). If that were the case, why would Lensbabies be so popular?

I think we need to be careful when asking for absolute judgement - comment on technical aspects can be useful only if we all agree on a single set of standards, which I think unlikely, and have decided that we are pursuing that definition of technical excellence. Should we follow the "soot & whitewash" semi-abstract of Brandt, or the gritty realism of Weegee, or some other?

For me photography is about expression and feeling - I would find it much better to simply say if we like something and, only possibly, why.
Click to expand...


Hi John,
I read your interesting reply and I agree with you about photography as a feeling and a way to express a vision. It's also difficult to say what's better or clever than something or somene else.
But I think photography - in some way - it's similar to the music; you can learn to play guitar without taking a music lesson and be Bruce Springsteen ( I think he never had a guitar lesson but for me he plays rock as nobody else except J. Fogerty...) or take lessons learn the music and then express your feeling. That is what I feel about photograph, I don't feel to be such a great photog and I'd like to learn, from a teacher, the basics, the tricks, the rules for shooting, developing and printing pictures. But, i don't have so much time and then this great resource called RFF could do something useful for the ones who would like to have some "lessons". There are many retired pro here and they could be helpful for this purpose. So when I'll learn some "rules" I'll decide how to use them to express my vision or to break them to the same goal...
Hope I've been able to express my thoughts clearly ... it's not easy for me, with my poor english ...
Bye
Nico


...what about RFF english lessons for non english speaking members?😀
 
To "improve" you have to have some idea of what is wrong or at least not right. Also, you shouldn't confuse improving with becoming more popular although the two often go hand in hand. Popular is more to do with style, subject matter and emotion, although great technique will help - at least to repeat your successes.

IMHO the first stage is to get what you consider to be your best shots critiqued (constructively) by someone (or several) whose opinion you respect and/or work you admire. The critique should cover both the technical and aesthetic qualities of the shots. This should give you a list (hopefully short) of areas to work on.

The second stage is to practice what you have learned.

The third stage is to re-critique and then practice some more.

In practical terms, there are enough good photographers on this site to provide you with an honest critical assessment of your work and I'm sure may of these would be willing to help you - a couple of PMs will sort that out.

Once you have mastered technique and composition, the hard work starts - you have to put yourself in the position to get the shots you envisage - JLW made some very good points on the potential difficulty of achieving this. If you really want to get "stunning" shots, sometimes you have to go and search them out and put yourself out - There's a well known wildlife photographer in the UK (Andy Rouse) and he had an assignment to get some shots of ring tailed lemurs in Madagascar and it took something like 4 days of slipping and sliding through dense forest to get a couple of decent shots. The same guy recently spent a week to get a couple of shots of kingfishers. The point I'm making is that you've got to be prepared to work at it or be very lucky.

I guess that most of the photographers that we admire are or were professionals. Imagine how good any of us could get if all we ever did was take photographs. Also how many really great images did HCB take and what would his percentage of keepers be - he must have shot a lot of film, as well as being paid to visit cool locations where potential shots might be growing on trees🙂

Ultimately, if YOU like what you take, that is what really matters regardless of plaudits or lack of them. I have nice comments on some of my gallery shots. Some of these are on shots I really like, some of them are on shots I think are OK. I also have shots that I really like that have no comments at all. There really is no accounting for taste.

Recognising a need to improve is actually step one on the road to improvement.
 
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