tho60
Well-known
Hello!
I have developed a roll of film, following the instructions: continuous turning in the first 30 seconds, then 10 seconds in every minute. Yet I got a botched negative with heavy bromide drag. Mostly the lighter areas in the negative (dark in the positive) are affected. From the perforation holes stripes occur.
In your opinion, what has happened? How to prevent such cases?
Thanks, Thomas
I have developed a roll of film, following the instructions: continuous turning in the first 30 seconds, then 10 seconds in every minute. Yet I got a botched negative with heavy bromide drag. Mostly the lighter areas in the negative (dark in the positive) are affected. From the perforation holes stripes occur.
In your opinion, what has happened? How to prevent such cases?
Thanks, Thomas
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Thomas,
Hard to tell without seeing it, but my suspicion is that it probably isn't bromide drag: more likely insufficiently random agitation. How were you agitating? Invert-and-twist always works best for me, 4-5 inversions in 10 seconds.
Cheers,
R.
tho60
Well-known
It is a Plastimat tank. I have a stopwatch: when the pointer reaches '30' in the dial, I start to invert the tank for 10 seconds. I try to avoid leaking of developer, since the tank does not close perfectly.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Thomas,
Yes, that's a bar steward: trying to be too slow and careful. Sounds even more like inadequate agitation. Swirl the tank before you lift it; invert; swirl at the end of the inversion. Aim for at least 3 inversions.
To help with leaks, cut a ring from a motor car inner tube -- go to a tyre/tire shop for a second hand/punctured one, explaining what it's for -- and use that to seal the top to the bottom.
Alternatively, get a better tank. Where are you?
Cheers,
R.
tho60
Well-known
I am in Hungary. The tank has an inner plastic ring, but sometimes it fails. Can bad fixer or stop bath cause such problem? Or failed developing only.
Thank you for you tips.
mfogiel
Veteran
It only can be caused by incorrect agitation during the development. If your developing tank sucks, try to develop in total darkness: do not close the tank, and agitate by lifting and turning the reels with the rod, at the end pour out the developer and pour directly the fixer in. Stop bath FWIW is redundant, unless you are trying to save on fixer by reutilising it, which I think is not a great idea. After a few minutes ( 3-4, depending on the concentration) you can turn the lights on and continue in daylight. A better idea is to get a decent developing tank - if you look around you might find some for free from people who went digital.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Why waste fixer? Why is it "not a great idea"?
The point about developing in total darkness is a great idea, but not convenient for everyone.
And to the OP: not, it's not fixer or stop bath. It'd bad agitation caused by a bad tank.
Cheers,
R.
mfogiel
Veteran
Why is it "not a great idea"? "
I find that re utilising chemicals increases chances of development problems: spots, streaking, uneven processing. Moreover, fresh fixer will give you confident and short reference time for sufficient fixing time.
I find that re utilising chemicals increases chances of development problems: spots, streaking, uneven processing. Moreover, fresh fixer will give you confident and short reference time for sufficient fixing time.
colyn
ישו משיח
I would have to disagree with you too. And I also disagree with your first post where you state to skip the stop bath..
All of my developing is done with one shot developer then I stop it and last fix. But I reuse the fix since I don't dilute it..and I have never had any problems.
If you go straight from developer to fix, you are bound to have issues in part because you are contaminating the fix with developer.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Not if you're doing it right. HOW will re-using fixer get streaking or uneven processing? Or spots, unless your darkroom is filthy? Not re-using fixer is pure profligacy.
Cheers,
R.
Ronald M
Veteran
Slow gentle is exactly what you DO NOT want.
Generous agitation will replace spent developer over all the negative instead of that easily reached by "gentle". The places not reached have bromide byproduct run down.
Thee easy ways to perfect agitation
Plastic tank, stick first round only, then inversion.
5 inversions in 5 sec per Kodak web page. It works
2 inversions in 5 sec with a twist while inverting . Did it for decades.
two reels in a 16 oz 2 reel tank. Bottom one with film. Empty as place holder. Invert 2 time in 5 sec. Use only 8 oz of developer. This is how sheet film is developed with hangars. Up, drain, return.
Same as above, but roll 1.3 rotations one way, 1.3 back. Takes 5 sec . Bill Pierce wrote of this in Modern Photography early 60`s. Upright after rolling. You do know Bill?
All other methods will get you some time sooner or later.
Slow leaves under replenished areas. Stand is even worse. Check the drag marks on the leader.
Follow the "experts " and you will encounter trouble. If anything else ALWAYS worked, Kodak would have figured it out a long time ago.
Generous agitation will replace spent developer over all the negative instead of that easily reached by "gentle". The places not reached have bromide byproduct run down.
Thee easy ways to perfect agitation
Plastic tank, stick first round only, then inversion.
5 inversions in 5 sec per Kodak web page. It works
2 inversions in 5 sec with a twist while inverting . Did it for decades.
two reels in a 16 oz 2 reel tank. Bottom one with film. Empty as place holder. Invert 2 time in 5 sec. Use only 8 oz of developer. This is how sheet film is developed with hangars. Up, drain, return.
Same as above, but roll 1.3 rotations one way, 1.3 back. Takes 5 sec . Bill Pierce wrote of this in Modern Photography early 60`s. Upright after rolling. You do know Bill?
All other methods will get you some time sooner or later.
Slow leaves under replenished areas. Stand is even worse. Check the drag marks on the leader.
Follow the "experts " and you will encounter trouble. If anything else ALWAYS worked, Kodak would have figured it out a long time ago.
colyn
ישו משיח
If done right stand developing can be just as good or better in many cases as normal developing.
I do also do normal developing but I also like to do semi-stand which is development done normal for the first 5 minutes then 3-5 inversions at 30 minutes then dumping the developer at the end of the 1 hour period. Stop and fix done normal..
I have never had any problems when doing it this way...and my negatives come out of the drying cabinet looking good and are properly developed..
With semi-stand I am able to get more detail in the highlights as well as an increase in perceived sharpness and finer grain and I have never encountered bromide drag..
However...I have found high speed films such as Tri-X don't work near as good as slower film..
tho60
Well-known
I have developed a roll of the same type of film with the same developer, but in a Paterson tank. This tank requires rotation instead of turning up. No problems occurred. I suspect that when I turn up the tank, the developer flows through the perforation holes and this causes stripes.
Might too violent turning promote this? Should agitation be gentle?
Might too violent turning promote this? Should agitation be gentle?
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Neither. You don't want to shake it like a cocktail shaker, but still less do you want to be slow. I normally do 4-5 inversions-plus-twists per agitation cycle.
All you want to do is to replace exhausted developer with fresh.
Cheers,
R.
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Gentle won't do - you want to replace the spent developer at the film surface, and mix it into the fresh developer so that you don't create a spent zone at the middle of the reel. You don't want froth to build up inside the tank, as that will impede agitation, but you want as much movement below that threshold as possible.
The key is inverting the tank vigorously, and giving it some extra movement (it does not really matter much whether you twist, tap or shake) after each inversion, to break lose any bubbles that might have got caught in the reels.
The key is inverting the tank vigorously, and giving it some extra movement (it does not really matter much whether you twist, tap or shake) after each inversion, to break lose any bubbles that might have got caught in the reels.
Ronald M
Veteran
NO. The instructions call for the twist stick immediately upon developer pour. Then use inversion. Pouring in the correct amount leaves much empty space for the developer to circulate which is what you want. This is the very same principle as one film/two reels in a double tank that I described above.
Horizontal rotation will replenish the edges before the center giving you a dark streak down the center of the print.
Concerning dark streaks from sprocket holes, I have never seen this in 50 years. But I can tell you if it happens, there is developer going through the holes more or less than the areas between. More agitation is the only way to equalize. Kodak site calls for 5/7 inversion in 5 sec. It works and in no way is gentile. I have tried it but is such a pain, it is not my normal practice .
Getting back to sprocket holes, I develop sheet film with hangars which have drain holes in the bottom. I used to get fine dark streaks from the holes.
I concluded faster immersion was the answer. Now I plunge the the whole rack of hangars in as fast as it will go. Problem gone. The first 30 sec in developer is critical with all film. Cover the film quickly.
I will also tell you, best practice is to drop the loaded reel into a prefilled tank. Same principle. Pouring in dribbles the developer down the sides and outer wraps leaving streaks SOMETIMES. The bigger the tank, the more prone it is. Use lifting rod.
Plastic tanks fill evenly from bottom up and you do not have this problem.
Also with lifting rod, you can do horizontal rotation. Rotate 180 deg. Lift rod 1/2 the width of film. Rotate reverse. This works and pros have done it for decades. My neighbor had a wedding business and did 150 rolls every Sunday evening. He had 8 reel tanks and did it as I describe.
presspass
filmshooter
If you can, get another tank. With Jobo tanks, invert and twist at the same time, making about four inversions every 10 seconds. How much developer is in the tank also matters. If the tank is full to the brim, it's tough to move the developer with agitation. You need enough room for the developer to slosh around a bit. As to reusing fixer, I have done this for years and can safely get 100+ rolls from a gallon of rapid fixer. So far, and I have negs back to the 1970s, it has not affected the permanence. I don't use stop bath, but do give a 30 second rinse in flowing water between the developer and the fix. As they say in car commercials, your results may vary.
kbg32
neo-romanticist
Use steel reels and tanks. Plastic tanks use too much chemistry and always cause problems, air bubbles, uneven distribution of chemistry, etc.. If you're using plastic because you can't roll film onto a steel reel.... practice. Steel reels and tanks are so much easier to clean and maintain.
As Roger said, one doesn't need stop bath. I use a water rinse at same temperature as developer before fixing.
As Roger said, one doesn't need stop bath. I use a water rinse at same temperature as developer before fixing.
tho60
Well-known
I see that I have generated more fervent debate than I expected. There is no unity regarding the right agitation, so I will do experiments to make clear this issue.
JoeV
Thin Air, Bright Sun
I twist the tank along its axis about a 1/4 turn between every inversion action, so as to ensure new areas of the film get the "pouring action," which helps to even out the development.
~Joe
~Joe