How tough are M's

M's are tough. If you have them, shoot them - otherwise what is the point to have them?
I certainly didn't choose to use Leica cameras because they are tough, but using them everywhere without any problems.

@ stupid leica
You just never know what will happen next with a M camera.
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Really? :rolleyes:
 
Aha, I was going to mention that drop-bear risk. The real question the OP needs to consider is what sort of camera can best be used as a survival weapon against those terrifying creatures. Perhaps sharpening the lens-hood would help?
 
Because this does tend to be a Leica M forum more than any other, the problems that are experienced are aired here and will seem to be many. The fact that a lot of these M's are in the case of m2's and 3's, 40+ years old and even m6's, some are 25 years old, should be remembered.
The main problem is under used cameras. They simply gum up with dried lubricants and brittle cement.
I can understand a previous poster when he says 'what will happen next'.
I've sometimes felt like that but then remember the above.
Slow speeds sticky, fast speeds speed up, finders seperate, shutter curtains detach.
My latest M6 problem was only found yesterday and one that perhaps will help others.
I've always thought that exercising the shutter now and then will keep an M in good shape. Seems like you need to have film in it when you do!
Problem. film advance works no problem with no film but once a film is loaded the advance occasionally doesn't advance far enough or sometimes doesn't even ratchet at all. So once again a cla is needed. I actually don't think it's ever been done which is pretty good for a 26 yr old camera.
It's the same with Nikon F and F2's. Slow speeds hanging. Mirror slow or doesn't return at all. They are all just old and tired and in need of some tlc.
More recent cameras are probably still working well because the lubes used were more recent technology and don't gum up as easily.
As far as water goes, unless it's an underwater camera, it was never designed to operate whilst soaking wet. Many are well sealed against water, ie Nikon and Canon's later pro line gear however they will still pack up if taken swimming!
Use a serviced camera within it's known and designed limits and you should have no problems. Use it as a hammer or aqua lung and you really bought the wrong equipement for what you are trying to do!
 
If Leicas were as hopelessly unreliable as some people seem to think -- "You just never know what will happen next with a M camera" -- then nobody in their right mind would ever use them, and Leica wouldn't be able to sell 'em.

Yes, my Nikon Fs are tougher. If I HAD to drop one of my cameras from table height to a tiled floor, I'd choose an F over an M, and not just because they are a lot cheaper. But most of the time, I don't drop my cameras, and as I say, I've been using 'em in Europe, Asia and North America for decades. An M2 jammed once, but of course I had a backup, and the other two problems didn't render the cameras unusable: you can still shoot through a cracked viewfinder glass, and I straightened the bent rewind on the spot with my Leatherman. I'm still using the latter camera without further repair.

Of course my experience is only anecdotal, but as I'm not the only one who uses Leicas reasonably hard (plenty use them harder, including one chum on Fleet Street who won most of his press awards with Leicas), I suspect that the belief that Leicas are quite reliable is not based entirely on myth and snobbery.

Cheers,

R.
 
Roger Hicks said:
If Leicas were as hopelessly unreliable as some people seem to think -- "You just never know what will happen next with a M camera" -- then nobody in their right mind would ever use them, and Leica wouldn't be able to sell 'em.

Yes, my Nikon Fs are tougher. If I HAD to drop one of my cameras from table height to a tiled floor, I'd choose an F over an M, and not just because they are a lot cheaper. But most of the time, I don't drop my cameras, and as I say, I've been using 'em in Europe, Asia and North America for decades. An M2 jammed once, but of course I had a backup, and the other two problems didn't render the cameras unusable: you can still shoot through a cracked viewfinder glass, and I straightened the bent rewind on the spot with my Leatherman. I'm still using the latter camera without further repair.

Of course my experience is only anecdotal, but as I'm not the only one who uses Leicas reasonably hard (plenty use them harder, including one chum on Fleet Street who won most of his press awards with Leicas), I suspect that the belief that Leicas are quite reliable is not based entirely on myth and snobbery.

Cheers,

R.
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I agree, but it seems that Leica reliability-bashing is based entirely on myth and snobbery of another kind.:p...ya'll do recognize a joke, right?;)

IMO, I have owned more than a few Nikon cameras and if I were going out in the wilderness to shoot, I would choose the AF Nikon SLR's over an M primarily because of the lens choices, weather sealing, and the fact that an SLR would just work better overall with the wide variety of shooting. I reckon if it was good enough for Galen Rowell, it should be good enough.

Having said that, I never shoot my Nikon SLR's much anymore because I love using the M3 and the R4. Both give me exactly what I am looking for in performance, feel and reliability.:angel:
 
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I dropped my M6 a distance of about 3 feet onto a paving stone. The corner of the base plate is bashed in a mm or two and the inner corner of the camera which the base plate protects is bent about a mm out of true. The metal lens hood is dented too. All that adds up to the camera taking quite a bash in my opinion. It still functions perfectly and I have come to regard the damage as purely cosmetic.
 
nobbylon said:
I've always thought that exercising the shutter now and then will keep an M in good shape. Seems like you need to have film in it when you do!
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Any substantiation for this? I was unaware that the presence or absence of loaded film had any bearing on the operation of the shutter.
 
hendriphile said:
Any substantiation for this? I was unaware that the presence or absence of loaded film had any bearing on the operation of the shutter.
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it's to do with the interaction between the tulip spool and gears and the shutter wind mech. The 'substantiation for this' was a trip to Will van Manen yesterday to drop it off for repair!
 
They are pretty good. If you are attached to the camera when it takes its knock, you are likely to suffer more! They may not be as tough as a Nikon F, but they are generally tough enough.

The only thing to bear in mind IMO is the affect low temps will have on batteries (read horrendous). Might be worth considering a little light meter on a cord around your neck where it will stay warm under your clothing because your M's batteries won't last long and subzero temperatures. I've certainly noticed the low life expectancy of batteries at -10 C and below.

One thing I cannot comment on is how the cloth shutter fares at extremely low temperatures, as might be experienced in Alaska. I seem to recall reading about one explorer type who used a M under such circumstances because the shutter did not stick, but it could be my imagination.

While I have had dust get inside finders (unsealed MP), I have not had an mechanical problems resulting from dust. I lok after my cameras, but have shot in dust storms and all conditions really. Never missed a beat. I have owned and used 6 bodies and not one has had any fault whatsoever (that was not there when I bought it). 1/1000th is iffy (uneven exposure so curtains need tweaking) on one of my M6 bodies but thats not a great drama to fix.
 
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@Roger: Apologies if I wasn't clear. I didn't mean that your anecdotes were not to be trusted, I just meant that my experience dropping a camera (or yours, for that matter) is unique and can't be generalized to a statement about all cameras of a particular type, or age or manufacture. I'd guess that I use my Leicas much less strenuously than you do and like you I have had very few problems.

I have several cameras that are quite a bit older than I am (they tend to be Leicas and Nikons) that hold up in weekly/monthly use and compared to, say, the odd Pentax Spotmatic, Retina, Contax RF etc. of same/similar age do extremely well. But the OP was interested to know whether taking 2 M6s was to the edge of the earth was a good strategy. My answer was (and is) "yes, and take a good, cheap backup in a zip loc baggie." If he were taking 3 M's? Same advice.

Oddly, I have one Nikon F, the shutter of which tests within 1/6 stop accurate at all speeds. This is just amazing, given its age and intermittent use; it is not a camera that gets babied. Quite the opposite, it is the camera I take with me when I expect a little hard going because it would be inexpensive to replace. But it is absolutely dependable.
 
Take your Leica with you. Just be careful. What did you buy it for anyway? Its not a necklace or a paper weight. You could drop it on your kitchen floor as easily as in Alaska. If you had a Nikon D7000 you would take it right?
 
I reckon that the toughest camera is the Nikonos. From what I've read, combat photographers (as opposed to war journalists), took Nikon F's, Nikkormats, and the Nikonos into war.
 
ferider said:
Your M6 bodies are the sturdiest of all Leicas: metal gears, zinc top and bottom, which don't ding but crack on much more pressure only. I once dropped an M6 from shoulder height on a wood floor and nothing happened. It was in a Luigi case, however.

The thing that breaks easiest is the aluminum rewind knob (it did for me on another occasion). You might want to replace this with a Leicaflex or M4 brass knob (DIY, Don@DAG sells them).

If you want to add protection against dropping, etc., I recommend a leather half case (Zhou, Luigi, original Leica, depending on preference and budget). Use a neck strap. Take a screw driver on long trips to adjust the RF if necessary.

You say you'll take two cameras. You'll be fine.

I will be going to Alaska, too, and take Leica (M4P or M6, not sure yet) and Olympus OM.

Roland.
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I was sprinting down a hall to get a shot of a fire in the building next door, i had one M in hand and a M6 in the bag, but i didnt realize one strap wasnt closed. The M6 fell out from waist high hit a carpet floor (carpet over concrete i believe) and nothing happened. No dents, no problems.
 
Leica M's, having enclosed magnesium alloy injection molded housings can take the shocks from sides or bottom better than many other cameras. However the brass (later zinc-casting) cover to protect the top, especially finder and rangefinder gear has no "room" to distort so most of the time the shocks are transmitted to the "gear" just below the cover. As long as not dropped on hard surfaces to damage the top cover, any M model can withstand the drops with least damage.

The F-Nikons can be considered as being the equivalent of the M-types in the SLR world. Due to the partial body casting, they may not take side shocks as the M-Leicas can, especially the peripheral sealing channels. The top prisms damage more readily than the Leica top covers (how many plain F-prisms one can see with no dents ?) :mad: however such drops can hardly damage the penta prism inside, not like Leica :)

As for mechanical reliability; although I think they are more or less the same, in the 70's and 80's a plain Nikon F was my favorite camera to take with to the motorcycle tours (vibrations, vibrations!) to cover more than 50K miles probably. In winter too, skiing, snow, rain or dense fog on mountains, not one single time this camera has failed... It still works impeccably after a CLA and replacing the aged foams.

If you intend to use for decades, the M-Leicas and Nikon F bodies can be first class choices to recommend (but for me they are also the easiest ones to service as they are purely mechanical, like shotguns.)
 
To me, the definition of "reliable" is that without being dropped on anything at any height, a camera should not jam on its own.

In this regard, M-body is reliable. And so is my Olympus OM-1n :D
 
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