HP5+ Rodinal and grain.

[Photo_Smith]

@Photo_Smith: the worst I've ever seen from my own developing in Rodinal was indeed with non-perfect exposure and shots with tones closely grouped around zone V, so I can perfectly live with that as an explanation for silly grain. Still though, I'm going to keep on keeping my processing temperature low enough 🙂

I love your work with Rodinal, by the way! Your blog posts on using Rodinal have been an inspiration to try to get the hang of it!

Derk

Derk
I'm flattered, really! I guess by the results you seem to get you're mastering it nicely your lower temp really helps, my being in the UK means water comes out of the tap Rodinal ready 🙂.
Thanks for the Kudos and I'm pleased you like my blog, I only wish I had more time to publish my experiments with Rodinal.
Have a nice weekend.

 

[gsgary]

Derk
I'm flattered, really! I guess by the results you seem to get you're mastering it nicely your lower temp really helps, my being in the UK means water comes out of the tap Rodinal ready 🙂.
Thanks for the Kudos and I'm pleased you like my blog, I only wish I had more time to publish my experiments with Rodinal.
Have a nice weekend.

Hi
When you develope at 18 degs do you add extra time ? if so by how much, i'm going to roll a small roll of HP5 and try the fridge developemnt later today but i will be shooting 10 rolls of APX100 and 10 rolls of HP5 later this week on holiday so when i get back will try the lower trmperature on HP5

 

[Photo_Smith]

Yes I extend the times slightly, there is a temperature calculator for Rodinal I have in Agfa literature it is on the internet somewhere (Sliverprint's PDF collection possibly) but off the top of my head if the time is 10 mins at 20°C then use 12mins at 18°C the time\temp curve is pretty linear with Rodinal but some experimentation is needed.

Also my agitation is lower than standard, I do 30 seconds then one inversion (slow) per min thereafter, in some cases where development times are long and dilution high I do one every two mins.

It will vary with each film and even to a degree the brightness of the scene, again experimentation is fun..
I'd like to try Derk's fridge development, I guess the chemical reactions would be slowed, normally that would be bad with most developers, good with Rodinal (reducing granularity) for some reason (i'm still experimenting and working out why).

EDIT:
Another point, HP5 has a very long shoulder making it hard to oversaturate the highlights (some call this blown) so as long as you expose to give emerging shadow detail at the film base plus fog and 0.1 density point you're good to go as the wonderful curve will give resulting images a sparkle... 🙂

 

[gsgary]

Yes I extend the times slightly, there is a temperature calculator for Rodinal I have in Agfa literature it is on the internet somewhere (Sliverprint's PDF collection possibly) but off the top of my head if the time is 10 mins at 20°C then use 12mins at 18°C the time\temp curve is pretty linear with Rodinal but some experimentation is needed.

Also my agitation is lower than standard, I do 30 seconds then one inversion (slow) per min thereafter, in some cases where development times are long and dilution high I do one every two mins.

It will vary with each film and even to a degree the brightness of the scene, again experimentation is fun..
I'd like to try Derk's fridge development, I guess the chemical reactions would be slowed, normally that would be bad with most developers, good with Rodinal (reducing granularity) for some reason (i'm still experimenting and working out why).

EDIT:
Another point, HP5 has a very long shoulder making it hard to oversaturate the highlights (some call this blown) so as long as you expose to give emerging shadow detail at the film base plus fog and 0.1 density point you're good to go as the wonderful curve will give resulting images a sparkle... 🙂

Thankyou very much for your help, i usually use DDX for HP5

 

[Penny Lane]

If anyone wants to try semi-stand deveolpment in the fridge, pleas note that I found out in the process that my fridge was actually not cooling very well 😀 For its normally intended use, I'd have to set it a bit cooler...

This is one of the main reasons why I need a good thermometer to check the temperature drop-off curve for any given amount of dilution. Otherwise, repeating the results will become rather hit-or-miss. Other factors are what tanks one uses as I'd expect a stainless steel tank to cool off quicker than a plastic tank. Lots of variables still, and I've yet to see how they all behave!

Derk

 

[Photo_Smith]

DDX will give you more speed, normally 500-640 Rodinal will be 250-400 depending on the range of tones in your subject. It is also more aggressive (for want of a better word) and will give smoother looking results.
I use Microphen (powder DDX effectively) with HP5 on small formats I want to push with smaller tonal ranges–its pretty much made for this.
Ilford have told me DDX is a good match for their Delta range of films, what that tells me is some of that aggressive reduction (could be called efficiency) might not be as good with long tonal scale cubic films.
Testing needed....

 

[gsgary]

DDX will give you more speed, normally 500-640 Rodinal will be 250-400 depending on the range of tones in your subject. It is also more aggressive (for want of a better word) and will give smoother looking results.
I use Microphen (powder DDX effectively) with HP5 on small formats I want to push with smaller tonal ranges–its pretty much made for this.
Ilford have told me DDX is a good match for their Delta range of films, what that tells me is some of that aggressive reduction (could be called efficiency) might not be as good with long tonal scale cubic films.
Testing needed....

This one is DDX

 

[gsgary]

If anyone wants to try semi-stand deveolpment in the fridge, pleas note that I found out in the process that my fridge was actually not cooling very well 😀 For its normally intended use, I'd have to set it a bit cooler...

This is one of the main reasons why I need a good thermometer to check the temperature drop-off curve for any given amount of dilution. Otherwise, repeating the results will become rather hit-or-miss. Other factors are what tanks one uses as I'd expect a stainless steel tank to cool off quicker than a plastic tank. Lots of variables still, and I've yet to see how they all behave!

Derk

I have just tried it HP5 1+100 starting temp was 17.5deg when i took it out of the fridge temp was 13.2 deg negatives look nice will scan and post tonight

 

[Penny Lane]

I'll be looking forward to that!

Derk

 

[gsgary]

I'll be looking forward to that!

Derk

Here's a quick scan and slight sharpening in PS, taken with M4-2 + new CV 50mmF1.5 m mount

 

[gsgary]

2 more of my favourite muse

 

[sojournerphoto]

Keith

I know that you said that you didn't like xtol, but I really like HP5+ in xtol 1+1 at iso 250 to 800.

In rodinal, and particularly scanned on a Nikon, I found far too much grain/grain aliasing.

Mike

 

[Penny Lane]

Gary,

The pics look nice! Your muse seems completely unfazed by having its picture taken. Much more relaxed than some dogs I try to take decent pics of...

Derk

 

[johannielscom]

2 more of my favourite muse

Right!

So Rodinal in a fridge to cool it down even more might actually be the next best thing since sliced bread! 😀

Gary, what film was this? Still the HP5+ that started this thread or did you use something else?

 

[gsgary]

Right!

So Rodinal in a fridge to cool it down even more might actually be the next best thing since sliced bread! 😀

Gary, what film was this? Still the HP5+ that started this thread or did you use something else?

Hp5+ i rolled a cassette with 10 shots to try it out

 

[gsgary]

Gary,

The pics look nice! Your muse seems completely unfazed by having its picture taken. Much more relaxed than some dogs I try to take decent pics of...

Derk

Thankyou Derk

 

[Keith]

Keith

I know that you said that you didn't like xtol, but I really like HP5+ in xtol 1+1 at iso 250 to 800.

In rodinal, and particularly scanned on a Nikon, I found far too much grain/grain aliasing.

Mike

I like Xtol when pushing ... HP5+ at 1600 in Xtol is very nice IMO.

 

[Highway 61]

Now that the dust has settled quite frankly I would advise anyone to just give up w/ the idea of developing HP5+ or Tri-X in Rodinal unless you like fiddling with exposure, development time, development temperature until you get something you like.

Here's what you may mainly get @ iso 400 with properly exposed shots :

- Rodinal 1+25 : buried shadows, unpleasant "beans soup" like grain

- Rodinal 1+50 : more defined yet still very (i.e., too much) visible grain, correct shadows but clipped highlights

- Rodinal 1+100, stand dev. : the compensating effect is here at last so both shadows and highlights will be OK and the grain will be less annoying, yet the negative will have no "punch" and won't look nicer than in D76 1+1 or 1+3.

Rodinal is an excellent choice with classic iso 100 films and especially for MF ; in 135 it gives superb results with Fomapan 100 @ 1+50, but I still don't see the point of using it with iso 400 films.

The other film it has some interest with, to my eyes, is Acros, because Rodinal gives some "structure" to a film otherwise having none with most of the other developers (that "digital" slick look many Acros users complain about).

If you want something really special and really nice with Tri-X and HP5+ (I speak of both on purpose because I am still waiting for some clear evidences of some visible differences between the two films apart from their retail price 😉), you can expose them @ iso 800 and develop them in some 2-baths developers like Diafine or Tetenal Emofin.

There you will hit the Moon (high acutance, visible yet very fine and very pleasant grain, excellent compensating effect so very nice and detailed shadows and no highlights clipping).

 

[Photo_Smith]

Now that the dust has settled quite frankly I would advise anyone to just give up w/ the idea of developing HP5+ or Tri-X in Rodinal unless you like fiddling with exposure, development time, development temperature until you get something you like.

Pretty much true with any conventional cubic film in benzene type developers using both non physical and physical development-no?.

Several times you've tried to put your opinions down as fact, they're NOT.

Rodinal isn't the fine grain choice with most fast emulsions, it has marginally more grain than D76 stock slightly better than 1:3 (only visible at large magnifications) but much is better with shadow detail and give similar emulsion speed.

It does not blow highlights and clip shadows at any dilution, those metrics are governed by exposure and development time, they are not a physical property of the developer at any recommended dilution.

Hp5 for instance has a wonderfully rounded shoulder if you get blown highlight with that you're overexposing–pretty dramatically I'd say.
If you have no shadow detail that's also exposure, you need to expose your emerging detail into the part of the curve where density starts to build, if you do that you have no problem with shadows–don't blame the developer!

Your rather silly 1:25=beans soup 1:50 = clipped highlights etc is laughable to a point where I'm thinking there may be something else at play here.
Have you ever used this developer? You yourself have posted images which don't back up your assertions, other have likewise do you not see with your eyes?


Really!

 

[Highway 61]

Hp5 for instance has a wonderfully rounded shoulder if you get blown highlight with that you're overexposing–pretty dramatically I'd say.
If you have no shadow detail that's also exposure, you need to expose your emerging detail into the part of the curve where density starts to build, if you do that you have no problem with shadows–don't blame the developer!

What are Tri-X and HP5+ designed for ?

Street/outdoor/daylight/available light 35mm (or MF) candid photography. Many situations where the light conditions are tricky, with contrejours and the like. Not for studio or LF when you can do some spot metering and/or follow Ansel Adams' tracks. 😉

Given this, developing such films in Rodinal doesn't look to be the best option IMO. This isn't a matter of "blaming the developer", rather a matter of common good sense ! 🙂

Of course, there is Ralph Gibson... 😉 BTW there is a very nice interview of him here.

Anyway - I'm not the only one who dislikes Rodinal with those two films out there.

This is the Internet and this is a forum, our opinions differ, so what ? People will read us, try out what they want, pick-up some advices here, some tips there, and come to their own conclusions. Spirited discussions like this one are always good ! 😉