HU: B&W -- film vs. digital

ywenz said:
Bertram: be my guest.

Interesting to deal with, pulling out too much contrast you make black "holes" visible (in her jacket for example ) which were hidden before in larger portions of black.
This is made just quick and dirty adjusting the tonal range with PS, abit with the gradation curve too. A bit brighter .

Regards,
Bertram
 

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willie_901 said:
Conor wrote:

"but then I realized - the color filter array being what it is, you'd have to interpolate each photosite with its nearest neighbors to get a pixels that looked panchromatic, instead of like a checkerboard."

Using information about nearest neighbor pixels is used in medical image analysis software (MRI for instance). so, don't let this stop you.

willie

The idea of interpolating between pixels isn't what stopped me -- what stopped me is the realization that this is precisely what a raw file converter already does. 🙂 So, I doubt I'd be able to get much of an image quality gain unless the bayer filter itself was removed as well.

Or, at least, this is my line of thinking. When uncompressed, the sensor data in the raw file probably looks like a long string of 12-bit integers (probably padded out to 16) interleaved like: green, red, green, blue, green, red, green, blue...

If you were to put all those "sub-pixels" into a bitmap instead of interpolating between them to make a full color image, you'd wind up with the very high-resolution monochrome image you'd wanted, but it would have a checkerboard pattern, because of the sharply different spectral response of each photosite in the sensor array.

I don't know how canon's pro raw-file converter makes higher quality b&w images than other competing converters, but I doubt it can somehow "invent" the missing 2 of 3 color channels at each photo-site. On the other hand, if the engineers know the precise spectral response of the bayer filter (which they probably do) and if they also know the color response characteristics of, say, tri-x, (which they also probably do) then it should be possible to create a grayscale image that matches the "look" of tri-x, with sensor noise instead of grain. Or t-max. Or whatever continuous tone, visible spectrum film they want.

To digress (and even to get back on topic), even with a spectral response that precisely matches fp4, i doubt most modern sensor cameras have enough exposure latitude to make its deep shadows look convincing (my normal development routine for fp4 yields I think 12 stops of exposure, I've measured it with a densitometer), and I'm skeptical of grain-generating algorithms. At this point, I'd rather just shoot the real thing for a buck-fifty a sheet and let the digital technology mature.
 
The MF digiback manufacturers like Phase one claim 12 stops and the Leica DMR shows more range than typical dSLRs. Both use more than 12 bit A/D converters and the chips involved seem to be good enough to record the information.

I'm pretty sure the A/D converter is not the problem, I've seen cheap flat bed scaners with 14bit, it must be in the sensors.
 
Bertram2 said:
How to get there (to the final image) , I mean the whole process beginning with the choice of the camera,, does count for me indeed. It determines my whole relationship to photography.

Regards,
Bertram


"The Process" might very well count for you, and make you feel complete in itself, but the end result is the photograph.

THAT is what people look at.

I don't care if someone lugs a 8x10 view camera to the top of Everest, develops the film in a homemade brew consisting of beer and betel nuts kept cool by the fanning of hummingbird wings.

If is is a crap photograph, the process means squat.

Only the photograph matters.

Tom
 
Kevin said:
I am under the impression that Ascough is a film-based wedding photographer. Where did you read that he uses digital for his weddings?


Nope. He put away his Leicas a year or two ago. Another thing that might startle you is that he shot regular old C41 process chromogenic film when he DID shoot film.

And I didn't read that anywhere, I talked to him about it via correspondence in a professional forum we both monitor. He's a nice guy and very willing to share information with other wedding photographers.

Tom
 
T_om said:
Only the photograph matters.

Tom

To you maybe (it is interesting that I have only ever seen digital users say that 'only the photograph matters', not a criticism, just an observation). To many of us the photograph and how we make it also matters.
 
tetrisattack said:
I'd rather just shoot the real thing for a buck-fifty a sheet and let the digital technology mature.

A buck-fifty a sheet, you must bee shooting large format, a digital tachnology that competes with large format is still several decades away IIMHO.
 
Andy K said:
To you maybe (it is interesting that I have only ever seen digital users say that 'only the photograph matters', not a criticism, just an observation). To many of us the photograph and how we make it also matters.

Realy? Read this thousands of times at p.net and elswhere long before digitals where as comon as today.

I'm in the lucky situation that I can make boring pictures with any equipment 🙂
 
Socke said:
Realy? Read this thousands of times at p.net and elswhere long before digitals where as comon as today.

I'm in the lucky situation that I can make boring pictures with any equipment 🙂

When I was first starting up my own developing, I asked a simple question on P.net, and was flamed for it. I no longer go to P.net, I think it is a pigsty.
 
T_om said:
Only the photograph matters.
Tom

Again, as i said it already, we do not differ at this point. It's been and still is all about the RESULT here in this thread, not about any kind of religious principles.

Regards,
Bertram
 
Andy K said:
When I was first starting up my own developing, I asked a simple question on P.net, and was flamed for it. I no longer go to P.net, I think it is a pigsty.

So it is not only Digital photographers that say "only the pictur matters" but also film photographers on P.Net, the goup grows larger 😉
 
fgianni said:
So it is not only Digital photographers that say "only the pictur matters" but also film photographers on P.Net, the goup grows larger 😉

I did not say that, Socke did.

22mp doesn't even come close to large format. And I mean large format, not half plate or quarter plate, I mean big, beautiful 8x10 and larger negatives.
 
Andy K said:
I did not say that, Socke did.

22mp doesn't even come close to large format. And I mean large format, not half plate or quarter plate, I mean big, beautiful 8x10 and larger negatives.


The newest, and probably best, Rodenstock lenses are diffraction limited on a Phase One P45 39MPixel back on a Linhof 679.

Here's a test
 
Socke said:
The newest, and probably best, Rodenstock lenses are diffraction limited on a Phase One P45 39MPixel back on a Linhof 679.

Here's a test

That is still small. How does it compare to Large Format? As I said, real Large Format 8 inch by ten inch negatives? Also at this level I would say cost becomes a major factor, how much does a 39 Megapixel Phase One P45 cost?
 
The P45 is around 30,000 Euro, and this test shows that you need extraordinary lenses to take it to it's potential. Reichman bought the Linhof and Rodenstock lenses because neither Zeiss glass on a Contax 645 nor Fuji glass on a Hassy H1 or H2 are good enough to use the potential of this digi back.

A bigger sensor would result in even shallower DoF and you can see in the pictures how much you loose to diffraction.
 
And in to make use of the backs potential you need lenses for more than 2000 Euro each! The body isn't cheap as well.
 
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