simplethings
Established
I finally got my hands on a Leica a couple of days ago thanks to a temporary "trade" between a friend and I. He has my 5D and I have his M4. The last time I ever set hands on a Leica was when I was about 8 years old in my dad's old camera store. He had an M3 and NEVER let me fiddle with it. It practically lived in his hand and I was always curious about the thing.
Anyhow, I'm a 22 year old girl living in Hawaii and it's a rarity to come across people with RFs around here. I took it out for the day (with my 1 year old baby boy) and had an interesting time... It started out with us at the mall and me trying to load the film in. After I got it setup (or so I thought), I began to shoot away as he ran around the Disney store. The whole time I thought "Geez, if I had my 5D I could get some images with one hand."
I later found out that I didn't put the roll in properly so I had to start over again. After banging out some test shots I went over to a local Longs Drugs to get that 1 hr processing. The end result was 22 horrible, out of focus, either blown out or way too dark photos. One, however, made me smile and raised my spirits.
I can't help but wonder... is this how it was for anyone else? I learned on an SLR and always wanted to try my dad's RF. Finally got the chance to and I am feeling so humbled by this experience. I definitely have a greater respect for those who can use RFs without light meters. I'm not so sure if I'll trade with my friend... maybe I should give it another roll and this time have my husband watch the baby so I can spend some one-on-one time with the M4.
Would LOVE to hear from anyone about their first experiences...
Best,
Diana
Anyhow, I'm a 22 year old girl living in Hawaii and it's a rarity to come across people with RFs around here. I took it out for the day (with my 1 year old baby boy) and had an interesting time... It started out with us at the mall and me trying to load the film in. After I got it setup (or so I thought), I began to shoot away as he ran around the Disney store. The whole time I thought "Geez, if I had my 5D I could get some images with one hand."
I later found out that I didn't put the roll in properly so I had to start over again. After banging out some test shots I went over to a local Longs Drugs to get that 1 hr processing. The end result was 22 horrible, out of focus, either blown out or way too dark photos. One, however, made me smile and raised my spirits.
I can't help but wonder... is this how it was for anyone else? I learned on an SLR and always wanted to try my dad's RF. Finally got the chance to and I am feeling so humbled by this experience. I definitely have a greater respect for those who can use RFs without light meters. I'm not so sure if I'll trade with my friend... maybe I should give it another roll and this time have my husband watch the baby so I can spend some one-on-one time with the M4.
Would LOVE to hear from anyone about their first experiences...
Best,
Diana
fishtek
Don
Like any new experience, it's best done slowly and deliberately. Certainly, there's a learning curve with the high-tech digital stuff, but the learning curve with an RF is no less challenging. There's (IMO) a much deeper sharing between the camera and the operator with an RF than with the digital machines. On the one hand, you're forced to understand closely what the limits and characteristics of the RF, if you wish to make good exposures. With the digital, you need to know how to set up the machine so the electronics work properly. Different but similar, eh?
Buy a couple rolls of film, and start bangin' away. You'll soon be looking for an RF of your own...
Regards!
Don
Buy a couple rolls of film, and start bangin' away. You'll soon be looking for an RF of your own...
Regards!
Don
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
Diana: I don't want to rain on a parade, but... no, that's not how it was for me. I had a Konica C35 V (V=viewfinder, i.e. scale focus, not RF), then I got an OM-1. After a few years, I added an M3 w/ DR 50, 21 SA & 90 Summicron. I never had a problem with the M3, BUT ... that's probably because with the Konica and the OM I really learned the basics of photography. No DSLR "does everything, I don't have to really know the basics" stuff.
I'm not impugning your knowledge here, but it seems to me that the M3 is presenting you with a valuable opportunity to discover some basic skills that will be valuable no matter what gear you use.
I'm not impugning your knowledge here, but it seems to me that the M3 is presenting you with a valuable opportunity to discover some basic skills that will be valuable no matter what gear you use.
simplethings
Established
Trius,
No offense taken. I'll just have to go back to step 1 and understand it better.
It is definitely refreshing to know that the M4 is as simple as it can get and if I can't get it right, it's because of me and not the machine. ;-) Thanks for replying!
No offense taken. I'll just have to go back to step 1 and understand it better.
It is definitely refreshing to know that the M4 is as simple as it can get and if I can't get it right, it's because of me and not the machine. ;-) Thanks for replying!
thomasw_
Well-known
Hi Diana and welcome!
Learn the basics of the zone system and the Sunny 16 rule for exposures. And perhaps you should get a little incident light meter like a gossen digisix for those uncertain times especially when shooting slide film. As well, try to find just a few films you like and stick with them until you know them well. With this familiarity, knowledge and light meter, you will start to gain the confidence to nail some fine shots with that M4.
Learn the basics of the zone system and the Sunny 16 rule for exposures. And perhaps you should get a little incident light meter like a gossen digisix for those uncertain times especially when shooting slide film. As well, try to find just a few films you like and stick with them until you know them well. With this familiarity, knowledge and light meter, you will start to gain the confidence to nail some fine shots with that M4.
simplethings
Established
Light Meter
Light Meter
Wow, that little thing is expensive! At least it's tiny... would go well in my purse. Anyone selling theirs? ;-)
Light Meter
Wow, that little thing is expensive! At least it's tiny... would go well in my purse. Anyone selling theirs? ;-)
Bryce
Well-known
Going meterless isn't for everyone, is a learned skill, and is highly error prone even for people who have mastered it. I'll second the "slow down" and the "carry a meter" recommendations.
The cheapest and handiest meter you likely have access to is in the form of another camera. Next would be an older and simpler one bought used, usually under $100.
If you're bent on training yourself to work without a meter, memorize the sunny 16 rule (search here or elsewhere) and make a habit of predicting what your Canon will recommend before you put it to your eye. That way you get instant feedback and can hone your skills quickly.
I cut my teeth on full manual cameras and still prefer using them, but the learning curve I still remember. And meterless? That's silly to me, I use a meter (in camera or not) still. I get better pictures that way.
As for digital/ automation making learning the basics harder, I'll have to say that isn't completely true. If you pay attention to the camera's "choices", question them, and experiment, you can learn much faster than you could've in the old days.
How ever you do it, keep shooting.
The cheapest and handiest meter you likely have access to is in the form of another camera. Next would be an older and simpler one bought used, usually under $100.
If you're bent on training yourself to work without a meter, memorize the sunny 16 rule (search here or elsewhere) and make a habit of predicting what your Canon will recommend before you put it to your eye. That way you get instant feedback and can hone your skills quickly.
I cut my teeth on full manual cameras and still prefer using them, but the learning curve I still remember. And meterless? That's silly to me, I use a meter (in camera or not) still. I get better pictures that way.
As for digital/ automation making learning the basics harder, I'll have to say that isn't completely true. If you pay attention to the camera's "choices", question them, and experiment, you can learn much faster than you could've in the old days.
How ever you do it, keep shooting.
retnull
Well-known
Diana, I want to sympathize with you about photographing small children while taking care of them. This is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT, I don't think even "pro" photographers can appreciate the degree of difficulty. Your main focus is of course the needs of the children, which can change in a fraction of a second, not fiddling with a complex or unfamiliar camera. I have a 1yr old and a 3yr old -- if I'm taking care of them, I can maybe get off a few snaps with a digital point-n-shoot -- sometimes! I can shoot them with my rangefinder only if they're sleepy or preoccupied.
JNewell
Leica M Recidivist
Well, everyone does that with the film _at least once_, so with a little luck you're over that.
The meter thing - even outside, sunny 16 is just OK. Inside I find it hopeless. There's a small Sekonic - I forget the number - that is comparable to the Digisix and cheaper.
Framing and focusing are a lot different than on an SLR (duh). There are advantages and disadvantages. Seeing outside the frame, for example - an advantage, unless you remember that the negative will only get what's _inside_ the frame!
Persevere. It may grow on you. It's not for everything, or everyone, but if it works for you, you'll really find that it grows on you.
The meter thing - even outside, sunny 16 is just OK. Inside I find it hopeless. There's a small Sekonic - I forget the number - that is comparable to the Digisix and cheaper.
Framing and focusing are a lot different than on an SLR (duh). There are advantages and disadvantages. Seeing outside the frame, for example - an advantage, unless you remember that the negative will only get what's _inside_ the frame!
Persevere. It may grow on you. It's not for everything, or everyone, but if it works for you, you'll really find that it grows on you.
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
Diana: One thing to help, I think, is to tease apart the issues and address them individually. With just a quick think, there seem to be some basics, some already mentioned:
* Exposure/metering (or not metering)
* Focus
* Camera handling -- mind meld with a completely different picture-taking machine
* Lens selection (no zoom!)
I agree that exposure is most easily addressed with a meter, and that a good used meter can be had for relatively little $$. Another small and (reportedly) reliable meter is the Sekonic 208 (Twinmate), which can be easily found new on evilBay for just under $100, and sometimes you can snag one used for even less. If I were in the market for another meter, that would be one I would certainly consider.
Keep going!
* Exposure/metering (or not metering)
* Focus
* Camera handling -- mind meld with a completely different picture-taking machine
* Lens selection (no zoom!)
I agree that exposure is most easily addressed with a meter, and that a good used meter can be had for relatively little $$. Another small and (reportedly) reliable meter is the Sekonic 208 (Twinmate), which can be easily found new on evilBay for just under $100, and sometimes you can snag one used for even less. If I were in the market for another meter, that would be one I would certainly consider.
Keep going!
John Rountree
Nothing is what I want
simplethings said:Trius,
No offense taken. I'll just have to go back to step 1 and understand it better.
Diana, with that attitude you will be just fine with the rangefinder after a little practice. I agree on a couple of things that others have said, first a meter is probably a good and reasonable investment. Second, if you want to learn the camera you owe it to yourself to spend a little "private time" with the M4, without your child. Since you are learning something so new, you will need to spend some time without interruptions or distraction.
Actually, you have already discovered the main difference between your 5D and the M4. The 5D is designed to make many of the critical, creative and technical decisions for you. With the M4 you are responsible for all those decisions (settings) the Canon automatically made on your behalf.
JNewell
Leica M Recidivist
On the question of kids and rangefinders, for me at least it didn't work very well when they were younger. That was one of the occasions when I tried to rid myself of Leica M gear. I found manual focus just too hard with rapidly moving children - others probably make it work well, not me. Ultimately, each time I've tried to get away from Ms, I come back, and it's expensive. When I came back this time I resolved that I'm not getting rid of the Ms! They don't do everything well, but what they do well they do best...my opinion, anyway.
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
Hi Diana, welcome to the zoo!
To boost your confidence, I went from shooting digital for years (without learning anything useful I might add) to shooting meter-less constantly now with different cameras. If I can do it, so can you
As a bonus, now I can use cool cameras with broken meters that other people throw away
Sunny-16 is no magic, just recording and remembering what you see and doing it enough to be able to calculate the offset until it's second nature.
Bryce said it aptly above, going meterless is not for everyone, some enjoys it, some don't. I do and I sincerely hope that you will too
To boost your confidence, I went from shooting digital for years (without learning anything useful I might add) to shooting meter-less constantly now with different cameras. If I can do it, so can you
As a bonus, now I can use cool cameras with broken meters that other people throw away
Sunny-16 is no magic, just recording and remembering what you see and doing it enough to be able to calculate the offset until it's second nature.
Bryce said it aptly above, going meterless is not for everyone, some enjoys it, some don't. I do and I sincerely hope that you will too
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JNewell
Leica M Recidivist
Diana, have you had a chance to try another roll (or more)?
simplethings
Established
Hey everyone,
Thank you so much for the advice! I put another roll into it and was able to borrow a friend's Sekonic light meter. I feel so silly with a light meter bigger than the camera itself. It's a bit hard to handle right now because I don't have a neck strap for the Leica. The light meter is really technical also so I haven't had too much time to sit down and read the manual, but I did make it a point to log the exposures for this roll.
I'm shooting color slides right now so we'll see how that goes. I wish I had a scanner so I could post the one photo that came out (in my opinion) wonderfully on my first roll. This experience with the M4 is definitely unlike the 5D. Reading about it online is so different from the actual experience. Can't wait to see the results! On a lighter note, my husband told me to put 10 rolls into it before Dec. 6 (when the M4 owner returns).
Here I go!
Thank you so much for the advice! I put another roll into it and was able to borrow a friend's Sekonic light meter. I feel so silly with a light meter bigger than the camera itself. It's a bit hard to handle right now because I don't have a neck strap for the Leica. The light meter is really technical also so I haven't had too much time to sit down and read the manual, but I did make it a point to log the exposures for this roll.
I'm shooting color slides right now so we'll see how that goes.
I wish I had a scanner so I could post the one photo that came out (in my opinion) wonderfully on my first roll. This experience with the M4 is definitely unlike the 5D. Reading about it online is so different from the actual experience. Can't wait to see the results! On a lighter note, my husband told me to put 10 rolls into it before Dec. 6 (when the M4 owner returns). Here I go!
Anupam
Well-known
You'll do fine with it, judging from your enthusiasm about and and that you realize that the 5D and te m4 are simply different kinds of things - not better or worse, just different.
I agree about separatin out the basics. Use a meter at first and shoot each frame slowly, deliberately - think about exposure, focus, dof, composition. I'd shoot a lot of neg film and run them off at a cheap grovery store lab. Once you get the basics down, you will begin to get into the RF mode and speed up to the point when it becomes second nature. I really use my RF - a Bessa T - faster than my AF Nikon, mainly because I shoot way more with it.
Best,
Anupam
I agree about separatin out the basics. Use a meter at first and shoot each frame slowly, deliberately - think about exposure, focus, dof, composition. I'd shoot a lot of neg film and run them off at a cheap grovery store lab. Once you get the basics down, you will begin to get into the RF mode and speed up to the point when it becomes second nature. I really use my RF - a Bessa T - faster than my AF Nikon, mainly because I shoot way more with it.
Best,
Anupam
JNewell
Leica M Recidivist
simplethings said:
Excellent advice - do it! You might try a good color negative film because (1) exposure latitude is greater and (2) development turn-around is faster. In my area, the runaway leader for processing is Costco, which does it better, faster and cheaper than anyone else. BTW, their scans are also the best. (The worst results I get come consistently from Kodak :bang: - and they wonder why they are losing market share?)
A Leica M will (kind of demands that you do) get more involved with the process. Most folks here find that satisfying - hopefully you will, too. If not, hey, life is too short... :angel:
simplethings
Established
I just printed out the exposure chart from a thread here in RFF. Compared the readings from a friend's Sekonic 558R and the chart and it was the same! I think I found myself a free lightmeter. Also found out that my college newspaper still has their negative scanner so I'll be able develop negs at the local Longs Drugs and take a nice 2 mile walk up to campus with my son to scan! Awesome! Now, I don't know how I'll manage this when my second child is born (currently 3 months pregnant)... but that's later. ;-) I'll post that photo I liked from the 1st roll when I get the chance to go up there and scan!
Best,
Diana
I think I found myself a free lightmeter. Also found out that my college newspaper still has their negative scanner so I'll be able develop negs at the local Longs Drugs and take a nice 2 mile walk up to campus with my son to scan! Awesome! Now, I don't know how I'll manage this when my second child is born (currently 3 months pregnant)... but that's later. ;-) I'll post that photo I liked from the 1st roll when I get the chance to go up there and scan!Best,
Diana