Nikolai
Member
I kinda wandered off after reading the "I am a..." bit. Identity crisis. WGAF.
AndysRollei
Member
Well if you don't care about other people and however expensive or not their gear is, or whether they have the latest gadgets, then I see no need for this thread to continue or even to have been started in the first place.
Andy
Andy
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Neare
Well-known
I agree with you Chris but that's not exactly what I'm getting at. Because I'm not talking about photography gear in relation to photographic gadgets, rather I'm talking about a whole lifestyle choice.
So taking a stab as to why. Let's say that as many photographers have an inherent interest in people and the world and as people they are more inclined to have a certain level of charisma, they are naturally drawn to what is popular/unique in order to associate themselves with the world. Therefore it is only normal that they are more likely to adopt popular tends, item wise. That may also go along with the idea that the camera is a gadget itself, which means that photographers are already more likely to be interested in other sorts of interesting devices.
Now if you would compare the photographer to the painter, regarding this topic there is a difference. Many painter/artist's will distinguish themselves by being as different as possible. Whether that would be by dressing certain ways etc. There is a factor there which causes them to go against the popular trends. Photographers, I believe, are the opposite.
So taking a stab as to why. Let's say that as many photographers have an inherent interest in people and the world and as people they are more inclined to have a certain level of charisma, they are naturally drawn to what is popular/unique in order to associate themselves with the world. Therefore it is only normal that they are more likely to adopt popular tends, item wise. That may also go along with the idea that the camera is a gadget itself, which means that photographers are already more likely to be interested in other sorts of interesting devices.
Now if you would compare the photographer to the painter, regarding this topic there is a difference. Many painter/artist's will distinguish themselves by being as different as possible. Whether that would be by dressing certain ways etc. There is a factor there which causes them to go against the popular trends. Photographers, I believe, are the opposite.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
Oh, well I have always been an outcast and someone seen as strange and different. I wouldn't even know how to act trendy or popular, so that idea never occurred to me. Even now, i look strange. I have extremely long hair, down to my waist, and a long beard while living in an extremely conformist city where there is no tolerance for looking any tiny bit different than EVERY other person.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
There've certainly been some odd reactions here.
What you're saying, surely, is that you have seen through gimmickry for gimmickry's sake, but equally, I'm not sure that you are distinguishing between gimmickry and quality, or even between gimmickry and pleasure of ownership. Note also the distinction between pleasure of ownership (using something that is, well, a pleasure to use) and pride of ownership (trying to announce or even gain status through your possessions).
My 'phone is even older than yours -- I bought it before I left England, nearly 10 years ago -- because I don't care about 'phones, but I bought an M9 because I wanted to use my familiar film lenses at their familiar angles of coverage. Am I 'proud' of the M9? No. Do I find it both useful and a pleasure to use? Yes.
'Fancy leather cases'? Well, I use Billinghams: not leather, but certainly 'fancy' in the eyes of many. They last for two or three decades of hard use, or a lot longer if you rotate them a bit. I've not felt the need for a new Billingham in a decade or more.
Cheers,
R.
btgc
Veteran
I do not care what people show in flickr "my bag" threads, but I'm pissed off that nearly every movie containing scene with laptop displays it with eaten apple, especially nasty in dimply lit room. If people pay for a movie ticket they get right not to watch hidden ads, I suppose. This brings up question - if you have to see product placements probably that's good excuse not to pay for watching?
Leigh Youdale
Well-known
Actually I think we've all missed the point of the original post. I suspect we were all supposed to be in awe/amazed/guilty and feeling that we should emulate the example we've been presented with. But it did sound a bit self-congratulatory and we've responded very badly. I for one, feel we should make a donation.
Neare
Well-known
^
Yeah I really am appreciating all the snide remarks.
I started this thread with an example, that's all. The question was:
I'm not actually surprised by the response. The way a lot of people are reacting is part of what I'm trying to get at. This is where I was hoping this discussion would go
To further that, perhaps it's something to do with a desire for aesthetics?
Yeah I really am appreciating all the snide remarks.
I started this thread with an example, that's all. The question was:I'm not actually surprised by the response. The way a lot of people are reacting is part of what I'm trying to get at. This is where I was hoping this discussion would go
To further that, perhaps it's something to do with a desire for aesthetics?
Gary E
Well-known
I work in the IT field and talk about gadgety people... If you're seeing more photographers associating with gadgets, it's because they require an iPad or iPhone to show off their pics from their digicams. At least that's what my digital friends are doing. Yes, as you guessed it I still shoot film cameras or "vintage" cameras as my friends would call it. I just don't need all that complications while I'm out and about shooting, though if you count my light meter and flash I actually do have gadgets in my bag.
myoptic
Member
I think this group of people, maybe more than most, considers itself a group of cognoscenti, and perhaps also specialists in certain collectible photographica.
Having some, or a lot, of really nice gear is as impressive as owning a rare Porsche. Very few people who own Porsches are able to max out the car's capabilities, but love the machine for its beauty. I think a lot of that goes on here, so owning nice Nikon, Canon, Leica, Voigtlander, Zeiss and Plaubel Makina rangefinders has a utility, but also a rare orchid quality. Having and owning several cameras in Mint condition is something to be proud of, having a beaten up camera that still takes excellent images is likewise worthy of pride.
I own a few old cameras, all of which I buy in user condition, as they are meant as tools. Good glass and workable/fixable shutters are my only real concerns.
There is no right and wrong about collecting, using, or just plain horse trading. I don't currently own a rangefinder camera, but have fallen for a very workable old folders, with accessory rangefinders.
Having some, or a lot, of really nice gear is as impressive as owning a rare Porsche. Very few people who own Porsches are able to max out the car's capabilities, but love the machine for its beauty. I think a lot of that goes on here, so owning nice Nikon, Canon, Leica, Voigtlander, Zeiss and Plaubel Makina rangefinders has a utility, but also a rare orchid quality. Having and owning several cameras in Mint condition is something to be proud of, having a beaten up camera that still takes excellent images is likewise worthy of pride.
I own a few old cameras, all of which I buy in user condition, as they are meant as tools. Good glass and workable/fixable shutters are my only real concerns.
There is no right and wrong about collecting, using, or just plain horse trading. I don't currently own a rangefinder camera, but have fallen for a very workable old folders, with accessory rangefinders.
kbg32
neo-romanticist
"Do not overrate what you have received, nor envy others. He who envies others does not obtain peace of mind."
- Buddha
- Buddha
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nakedcellist
Established
I think it's more a correlation between photography and the love of gadgets/equipment.
A lot of people who do photography are interested in having good equipment, wether it's a leica MP camera, an iPhone or a nice bag.
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
Trendiness is usually a sign of beginners.
When I begin shooting a couple years ago, I read every word of opinions about gears, bags, lenses, lens tests, diffractions, charts, and so on ...
But I ended up gravitating towards a specific style of gear, a specific bag, a specific camera and lens, and started to take pictures *despite* the trend.
I start *loving* the process of taking pictures, developing, and eventually printing.
Now trend does not affect me so much because I have settled down. Glad that I did too, because I cannot afford to follow the trends forever.
So to respond to your inquiry, some people follow trends forever, some settled down. It depends on the individual.
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redisburning
Well-known
I was offended that you would relate expensive pens with being trendy. Or a smart phone.
Have fun with your old piece of **** phone that doesn't do anything, but I have work emails to check. You try being 23 and not being connected 100% of the time. I guarantee you that you wont last long at whatever job you manage to find. And have fun with your disposable biros, I can't really write legibly while jamming a pen as hard as I can into a piece of cheap paper.
And 2 of my 3 bags are leather. I don't see the big deal. I eat cows, and they taste awesome. Might as well put the skin to use too. Shoes, camera bags, jackets... whatever the cow is dead either way.
You are assuming that I have pride in what I own. My perspective is that you have pride in that you can do without. Both are silly. Take what you can get, be grateful with what you have and remember it's all just stuff you can't take with you.
oh, and I'll NEVER own a mac.
Have fun with your old piece of **** phone that doesn't do anything, but I have work emails to check. You try being 23 and not being connected 100% of the time. I guarantee you that you wont last long at whatever job you manage to find. And have fun with your disposable biros, I can't really write legibly while jamming a pen as hard as I can into a piece of cheap paper.
And 2 of my 3 bags are leather. I don't see the big deal. I eat cows, and they taste awesome. Might as well put the skin to use too. Shoes, camera bags, jackets... whatever the cow is dead either way.
You are assuming that I have pride in what I own. My perspective is that you have pride in that you can do without. Both are silly. Take what you can get, be grateful with what you have and remember it's all just stuff you can't take with you.
oh, and I'll NEVER own a mac.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Highlight 1: Well, mine makes and receives 'phone calls. I don't ask a lot more of a 'phone than that.
Highlight 2: Not all jobs require you to be at the beck and call of peremptory e-mails at all times. If I'm away from my desk, I'm not sure I want to receive e-mails all the time. I have a life outside work.
Highlight 3: No, thanks. Tried being 23 once, for a whole year. Wouldn't want to do it again, 'connected' or not.
Highlight 4: Funny, quite a lot of people get on perfectly well with all kinds of cheap pens. Perhaps you're not doing it right. Stop trying to jam them into the paper, and just write with them instead.
Highlight 5: Quite. But you do seem to be quite excited about it, from the heat you inject into your post.
Highight 6: Are you not, at this point, defining yourself by the absence of a possession, in exactly the same way as the OP?
Cheers,
R.
redisburning
Well-known
well Roger, I tried writing with ball points for many, many years. in fact in school they made me write with one. well I suffered much less than my teachers, so I suppose on balance that one ended up not being such a big deal.
the ink in ballpoints is based on grease and yes, you have to use quite a lot of force relative to a fountain pen.
tell you what Roger, you're free to trade your Nikon and Leica gear for a digital point and shoot to use as your primary camera. when a client asks for a big print and it looks bad, you can just tell them that loads of people get along just fine with a p&s.
there is no such thing as a cheap fountain pen, at least by disposable Bic standards. certainly not if you want to buy a quality writing instrument that will last a life time like a Parker or Sailor.
additionally, I am relatively unconcerned with what others make due with. I require a tool to complete a task, and it is my style to find the best tool.
oh, and I will always make an exception for a mac. it bugs me to no end that Steve Jobs cried his whole life about being ripped off when if you look at what Xerox and Mitsubishi Heavy Industries were doing when his little Apple II came out you'd see that's just about as hypocritical as you can get.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Highlight 1: Weird, that. For most of my schooldays I wasn't allowed to use ballpoints. In fact, at prep school in the mid-1950s, we still had dip-pens and inkwells on the desk, though that was very old-fashioned even then. I still have the fountain pen I used for much of my school career, but I almost never use it. As soon as I could, I switched to decent ball-points (Parker, Lamy) and decent ball-points are still what I use today -- though I equally cheerfully use whatever's to hand, and I don't dig holes in the paper with any of it.
Highlight 2: This is pure nonsense, and you know it. The comparison between the camera you use to take a picture, and the instrument you use to write something down, cannot survive a nanosecond's rational analysis.
Which brings me back (obliquely) to the thread. There's an old saying that a poor workman blames his tools, but it's also true that most skilled workmen prefer to use good tools. Remove the components of snobbery and reverse snobbery, and you find that for any application there is a quality threshold, above which the tool matters far less than its user's skill. It's then a question of choosing the right tool for the application, and the tool that you're happiest using. If you genuinely can't write with a cheap ball pen, by all means use something else. But don't project your problems onto others.
No, a snapshot camera won't give you a 48-sheet poster. But a Bic biro will sign a contract, or write a novel (though I suspect most use keyboards nowadays), every bit as well as well as the most expensive pen in the world, let alone such exotica as my unbelievably weird glass dip-pen. And I'd rather see something written with a cheap ball-point, with due regard for such details as capital letters and punctuation, than a fine Italianate hand which omitted such niceties.
The above probably sounds far more combative than it is, but this may be because I recognize some of my younger self in you: an over-willingness not only to make wild and slightly pompous generalizations, but also to believe in them. Nowadays, I am still accused of making wild and slightly pompous generalizations, but they're often made for rhetorical effect, to make people think, rather than because I believe I know best about everything.
Cheers,
R.
jky
Well-known
I'm not a pro - just a hobbyist...
I have a macbook pro + android phone + billingham bag + other gadgets...
In no way do I pride myself in owning this stuff, however.
It's just stuff.
Do I enjoy them - yes I do - I purchased them because they do what I want them to do. But if you're equating "pride themselves" with elevating or gaining some sort of status, then absolutely not.
Turtle
Veteran
I don't get excited by accessories like iPads etc.
I don't think the issue you raise is a photography one, but related to other 'ways of living'. I tend to keep things relatively simple everywhere, so much so that I sometimes wonder whether I am missing something. More often than not, I am reminded (frequently) of how little I am missing.
I too use battered old phones without gadgets but that has more to do with being overseas and not being 'on contract.'
I love my Macbook Air tho. It has transformed the concept of portable computer for me.
I don't think the issue you raise is a photography one, but related to other 'ways of living'. I tend to keep things relatively simple everywhere, so much so that I sometimes wonder whether I am missing something. More often than not, I am reminded (frequently) of how little I am missing.
I too use battered old phones without gadgets but that has more to do with being overseas and not being 'on contract.'
I love my Macbook Air tho. It has transformed the concept of portable computer for me.
redisburning
Well-known
Well Roger I've been a professional student for 90% of my life and I studied mainly quantitative fields so the pen has been an integral part of my life.
If you're going to write a lot, you need a good enough pen. From my personal experience, a ball point pen will never reach that quality threshold you talk about.
And I'm not one for settling. I strive to make myself better at all times and I feel like as long as I don't lose sight of improving my own technique there is no reason to not also improve my tools.
Roger I agree with you the vast majority of the time and you've given me good advice but I think if you went and got one of those nice Watermen 52s they have over there and wrote with it for a few weeks you would see your handwriting improve and certainly your hands would feel better.
I have learned to be as nice to my hands as I can be. I will never play starcraft again, I dont play the guitar like Im trying to kill it anymore, I don't use crappy keyboards, I always wear gloves when working with them outside, and I use a good pen. I want them to last as long as I do.
If you're going to write a lot, you need a good enough pen. From my personal experience, a ball point pen will never reach that quality threshold you talk about.
And I'm not one for settling. I strive to make myself better at all times and I feel like as long as I don't lose sight of improving my own technique there is no reason to not also improve my tools.
Roger I agree with you the vast majority of the time and you've given me good advice but I think if you went and got one of those nice Watermen 52s they have over there and wrote with it for a few weeks you would see your handwriting improve and certainly your hands would feel better.
I have learned to be as nice to my hands as I can be. I will never play starcraft again, I dont play the guitar like Im trying to kill it anymore, I don't use crappy keyboards, I always wear gloves when working with them outside, and I use a good pen. I want them to last as long as I do.