funkaoshi
Well-known
You might want to educate yourself on those "flaws". I wonder how long it will be before the moderators nuke this thread. It's ridiculous.
Gumby
Veteran
I know. Its just that it was "them" saying it, not him. It's true only if one still believes the old Jim Crow "one drop" rule. Obama seems to just let it slide without comment... which is probably the best approach.
But personally I find it a bit offensive. It's like labeling me "blue" because my green clay is composed of both blue and yellow pigments.
Goldorak
-
I am fully educated on the subject, which was a part of my university studies, hence why I decided to add my grain of salt to this conversation. And since I am not a politician, I can freely say that I prefer the old regime. It is my choice. Don't step on my feet and I won't step on yours.
MickH
Well-known
Rewind 60 years.......
'Scuse me you can't call it that any more. Them Germans are nasty people and no one will buy a dog called that. Let's rename the breed "Alsatian". Yes, that's much better.
plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
FrankS
Registered User
It is an excellent photo. Just look at how much discussion it has sparked. It even holds up for ridicule the pencil race test, that I hadn't heard of before, so it's educational as well.
FrankS
Registered User
Freedom Shepards?
bcostin
Well-known
I think that's a great photo. If the photo was actually being used for advertising or something primarily in South Africa I could understand worrying about the connotations, but outside of that country I doubt many people would know or care.
The thing that bugs me about the most about these sorts of "controversies" is that they're usually lodged on behalf of some other person who, theoretically, might be offended. Some well-meaning but patronizing third-party decides that something might conceivably upset "those people" and swings into action. That person gets the warm fuzzies for their amazing sensitivity, but the innocent party who meant no harm gets justifiably annoyed at being accused of bad intent. And whatever group is being "protected" often ends up looking thin-skinned and bad-tempered. Even though they probably weren't offended in the first place and would rather not drag around such baggage. Bah, I say. Bah.
The thing that bugs me about the most about these sorts of "controversies" is that they're usually lodged on behalf of some other person who, theoretically, might be offended. Some well-meaning but patronizing third-party decides that something might conceivably upset "those people" and swings into action. That person gets the warm fuzzies for their amazing sensitivity, but the innocent party who meant no harm gets justifiably annoyed at being accused of bad intent. And whatever group is being "protected" often ends up looking thin-skinned and bad-tempered. Even though they probably weren't offended in the first place and would rather not drag around such baggage. Bah, I say. Bah.
nikon_sam
Shooter of Film...
Our last three dogs were indeed..."Alsatian-Freedom Non-Nazi Shepards"
I truly love dem dogs...sadly at the moment we are dog-challenged...we do have a cat that's being re-educated to act like a dog...
I truly love dem dogs...sadly at the moment we are dog-challenged...we do have a cat that's being re-educated to act like a dog...
anoldsock
Established
My intent isn't to offend anyone, but to compare racism with political correctness would be a gross misjudgment, and I would say borders on ignorance. There is a huge difference between being oppressive, prejudice and discriminating someone because of color, religion, sexual orientation, or otherwise than there is with using selective grammar or language. Racism has an oppressive connotation where as being PC is being respectful and sensitive to people's backgrounds, culture and so forth.
For the picture of the child that we are discussing, I definitely don't find it to be oppressive or racist, and the OP obviously didn't have any intentions to do so. Being said, I wasn’t exposed to an oppressive South African government. The reason's pictures are scrutinized so much are because images offer powerful messages and have been historically used as propaganda tools. Although we didn’t experience the ‘hair test’ in the US, the website or printed publications may have markets in South America and so you have to be mindful and sensitive to the history and cultures of other countries, especially if that’s your target audience. It all comes down to context, and in the context of South African society it definitely has racial undertones.
The same undertones are more obvious in the Intel ad because it relates to American history, but may not be so obvious, for instance, in eastern or Asian cultures. The intentions may have been that the Intel processor is simply faster out of the blocks, but again photos are such powerful images that there are definitely some perceived racial undertones. Again, this may not be the original intention, but that’s the perception…and perception is often the reality.
The argument of not taking offense if the races were switched is a poor argument. In the context of American history Caucasians were not oppressed, beaten, raped or killed because of skin color, and so switching the races in the ad wouldn’t conjure oppressive images. Again, it all has to be taken into context. It’s not “silly” that this ad was pulled, because we all know photographs and images are interpretations of placement, framing and so on. This isn’t necessarily saying that the photographer or advertisement is racist, but that simply given the context, there are definite racial undertones at play.
To say that images, photographs, paintings, prints, poems, books and other forms of arts aren’t interpretive holds no water. Art is inherently interpretive in that the elements within it are intended to evoke certain emotional responses.
The intentions of being PC are not to offend people of other culture and backgrounds; in short it’s being polite and sensitive. I do agree that being PC may have gotten a little bit out of hand, but there should never be any tolerance for racism.
For the picture of the child that we are discussing, I definitely don't find it to be oppressive or racist, and the OP obviously didn't have any intentions to do so. Being said, I wasn’t exposed to an oppressive South African government. The reason's pictures are scrutinized so much are because images offer powerful messages and have been historically used as propaganda tools. Although we didn’t experience the ‘hair test’ in the US, the website or printed publications may have markets in South America and so you have to be mindful and sensitive to the history and cultures of other countries, especially if that’s your target audience. It all comes down to context, and in the context of South African society it definitely has racial undertones.
The same undertones are more obvious in the Intel ad because it relates to American history, but may not be so obvious, for instance, in eastern or Asian cultures. The intentions may have been that the Intel processor is simply faster out of the blocks, but again photos are such powerful images that there are definitely some perceived racial undertones. Again, this may not be the original intention, but that’s the perception…and perception is often the reality.
The argument of not taking offense if the races were switched is a poor argument. In the context of American history Caucasians were not oppressed, beaten, raped or killed because of skin color, and so switching the races in the ad wouldn’t conjure oppressive images. Again, it all has to be taken into context. It’s not “silly” that this ad was pulled, because we all know photographs and images are interpretations of placement, framing and so on. This isn’t necessarily saying that the photographer or advertisement is racist, but that simply given the context, there are definite racial undertones at play.
To say that images, photographs, paintings, prints, poems, books and other forms of arts aren’t interpretive holds no water. Art is inherently interpretive in that the elements within it are intended to evoke certain emotional responses.
The intentions of being PC are not to offend people of other culture and backgrounds; in short it’s being polite and sensitive. I do agree that being PC may have gotten a little bit out of hand, but there should never be any tolerance for racism.
dazedgonebye
Veteran
"First black president" to appeal to those who would vote out of white guilt.
"Not all black" after the election, to be sure we know the debt is yet unpaid.
Race is a tool used by many to demean all.
I very much like the OP's picture. I understand why it was pulled and find it sad.
"Not all black" after the election, to be sure we know the debt is yet unpaid.
Race is a tool used by many to demean all.
I very much like the OP's picture. I understand why it was pulled and find it sad.
funkaoshi
Well-known
anoldsock, very well said.
Andrew Sowerby
Well-known
I don't see the problem with the photo being pulled. We're not talking about a show at a gallery. A publisher has elected not to use a particular photo for commercial purposes due to the chance that someone will be offended by it. What's the big deal?
Also, I'm surprised that more people haven't heard of the pencil test.
Also, I'm surprised that more people haven't heard of the pencil test.
TEZillman
Well-known
One could reasonably make the arguement that the entity that pulled the photo was being racist by doing so. The child is clearly shown with pencils in all colors, is associating with children of differing ethnic backgrounds, is clearly enjoying himself and is not being discriminated against. The photo can certainly be seen as a commentary on how things have changed for the better.
MickH
Well-known
TBH this is the first time I have heard of that particular "pencil test". There is another that I know of, but as we're all Gentlemen I won't demean this thread with a description.
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
hee hee, Mick, i was expecting someone comes up with THAT pencil test
freeranger
Well-known
That was exactly the intention. The photo was to demonstrate the warmth and friendliness between children from different cultures. It was very well received until someone mentioned the possible South African connection. It is sad, but after considering all the views put forward here, I believe the picture may be interpreted by some in the wrong way, without the context of an editorial companion piece.
Thanks for all the input. I realise now that, although I may be a bit of a drama queen (no offense to anyone's sexuality intended), I am not a racist.
aad
Not so new now.
Beautiful picture. Good art often riles up somebody.
I'm reminded of William Blake-one line from the Proverbs of Heaven and Hell.
I'm reminded of William Blake-one line from the Proverbs of Heaven and Hell.
nikon_sam
Shooter of Film...
I have some Good News & some Bad News...
I have some Good News & some Bad News...
When I first saw the photo in question I saw nothing wrong with it and in not seeing anything wrong I reclaimed some of my, what I thought was lost, Innocence...but now after reading the reasons behind why some Political Correct person decided to pulled it, sadly my innocence has been taken away...:bang:
I can understand why it would be pulled but at some point we all need to forgive (does not mean forget) the past deeds of man...We need to strive forward instead of dwelling in the past...
I have some Good News & some Bad News...
When I first saw the photo in question I saw nothing wrong with it and in not seeing anything wrong I reclaimed some of my, what I thought was lost, Innocence...but now after reading the reasons behind why some Political Correct person decided to pulled it, sadly my innocence has been taken away...:bang:
I can understand why it would be pulled but at some point we all need to forgive (does not mean forget) the past deeds of man...We need to strive forward instead of dwelling in the past...
George S.
How many is enough?
Yes, in one way it IS a beautiful picture.
"anoldsock" stated beautifully the reasons someone _could_ put a racist overtone on things. I never said there WAS racist intent, I said I believed there wasn't, but could understand why someone could get their feathers ruffled by it.
We would have to know the context and the meaning behind a photo before we judge it. We should also understand that there may be some other valid reaction from around the world and/or thru history that WE may not think of, but that doesn't make THEIR reaction to it unreasonable.
I'm a retired police lieutenant, now a private investigator and also have been a K9 dog trainer (German Shepherds at that) for the police. Say a very young employee of mine (in their 20s) who has no idea what occurred in the southern US in the 50s and early 60s wants to advertise our business and highlight the security and K9 background and shoots a print ad of a burglar attempting to break into a business and also in the shot is a German Shepherd waiting inside the building... could that burglar be depicted as black? Probably not. But my employee's intent would have been innocent enough, but others would say it wasn't in good taste, sensitivity issues, political correctness, or whatever you want to call it, and they'd be right.
"anoldsock" stated beautifully the reasons someone _could_ put a racist overtone on things. I never said there WAS racist intent, I said I believed there wasn't, but could understand why someone could get their feathers ruffled by it.
We would have to know the context and the meaning behind a photo before we judge it. We should also understand that there may be some other valid reaction from around the world and/or thru history that WE may not think of, but that doesn't make THEIR reaction to it unreasonable.
I'm a retired police lieutenant, now a private investigator and also have been a K9 dog trainer (German Shepherds at that) for the police. Say a very young employee of mine (in their 20s) who has no idea what occurred in the southern US in the 50s and early 60s wants to advertise our business and highlight the security and K9 background and shoots a print ad of a burglar attempting to break into a business and also in the shot is a German Shepherd waiting inside the building... could that burglar be depicted as black? Probably not. But my employee's intent would have been innocent enough, but others would say it wasn't in good taste, sensitivity issues, political correctness, or whatever you want to call it, and they'd be right.
tmfabian
I met a man once...
my god people are whiney little cry babies. i'm truly appalled that the world is this f'cked up. when will people learn, not everything is about them (input whatever form of PC nonsensical term you want in place of them...race, sex, religion...wah wah wah)
Seriously...when did the human race turn into a bunch of little sissies?
Seriously...when did the human race turn into a bunch of little sissies?
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