ronnie_retro
Established
cuz I've got to know. 
Many of us on this forum have been lucky enough to get one of the new Ikons, or at least new Zeiss glass, myself included. I 'm as happy as a clam with mine since it keeps me interested in shooting film.
But - (brace yourselves for the D-word) - the convenience of digital, and IMHO certain advantages of the digital image regarding apparent resolution, has it's own temptations.
L**** has just introduced the M8 digital camera, basically an M7 with a less than full frame CCD imaging chip. So it is now possible, with some adjusment for effective focal length, to use our most excellent M-mount lenses on a numeric capture box.
Myself I find the (speculated) price of ~$5000 apalling especially since there should actually be manufacturing economies possible with a digital sensor. No need for a precision shutter, just an electronic timing signal for the CCD, for example.
It would seem Zeiss must have an eye to this new market - digital RF/ M mount optics. Does anyone have an ear to the grapevine about a possible electronic Ikon ?
As usual thanks in advance for your insights-
Many of us on this forum have been lucky enough to get one of the new Ikons, or at least new Zeiss glass, myself included. I 'm as happy as a clam with mine since it keeps me interested in shooting film.
But - (brace yourselves for the D-word) - the convenience of digital, and IMHO certain advantages of the digital image regarding apparent resolution, has it's own temptations.
L**** has just introduced the M8 digital camera, basically an M7 with a less than full frame CCD imaging chip. So it is now possible, with some adjusment for effective focal length, to use our most excellent M-mount lenses on a numeric capture box.
Myself I find the (speculated) price of ~$5000 apalling especially since there should actually be manufacturing economies possible with a digital sensor. No need for a precision shutter, just an electronic timing signal for the CCD, for example.
It would seem Zeiss must have an eye to this new market - digital RF/ M mount optics. Does anyone have an ear to the grapevine about a possible electronic Ikon ?
As usual thanks in advance for your insights-
markinlondon
Elmar user
It certainly raises a few questions, Ronnie. First, though the Leica M8 is NOT a full-frame sensor, it has a 1.33 crop factor. The main issue raised is really who is driving the development of the ZI product? Sure, Zeiss are behind the lens designs, but manufacture is via Cosina if I'm not wildly mistaken. Cosina already have a relationship with Epson for a digital rangefinder. I think this is probably deeper than it looks from here. Your ZI glass will probably work on the M8 and definitely on the RD1(s). Will Cosina/Zeiss want to compete with themselves in the potentially larger digital market and further, how many digital Rf's can the market support?
SolaresLarrave
My M5s need red dots!
ZI is probably paying close attention to the sales and development of the M8 before jumping in the bandwagon. However, the edge they may have had over Leica (price-wise speaking, at least) may be reduced because of their pricing of the latest Elmarit 28/f2.8. This lens, in previous versions, would command some prices that left us simple mortals aghast... and now it's selling for a little more than a used M6TTL. Who knows?
However, as Mark said, those ZI lenses can be used in the M8, so that would make a nice (an relatively affordable) combo for some.
However, as Mark said, those ZI lenses can be used in the M8, so that would make a nice (an relatively affordable) combo for some.
Rayt
Nonplayer Character
Any digital camera with the Zeiss badge is going to be expensive. There may very well be an RD-2 but if Cosina puts in in a Zeiss chasis then it'll be a grand more for the same thing.
peter_n
Veteran
That 28mm is a very tasty looking street lens.
ronnie_retro
Established
"how many digital Rf's can the market support?"
Good point - I sometimes forget that the rest of the planet is out of step with us on photo gear. It may be that Zeiss will only target the lens market - with Leica guys now ponying up 5K, the more affordable Zeiss glass seems even more appealing.
Or so I'd have thought - I hadn't been aware of an "economy priced" Elmarit 28 (can those words even exist in the same sentence?) . On the M8, the 28 would just about correspond to a conventional 35 focal length, a very good match to the new camera.
It does seem though that for the future of the Ikon, a digital version would be necessary. Even the Wetzlarians had to come to that conclusion.
Good point - I sometimes forget that the rest of the planet is out of step with us on photo gear. It may be that Zeiss will only target the lens market - with Leica guys now ponying up 5K, the more affordable Zeiss glass seems even more appealing.
Or so I'd have thought - I hadn't been aware of an "economy priced" Elmarit 28 (can those words even exist in the same sentence?) . On the M8, the 28 would just about correspond to a conventional 35 focal length, a very good match to the new camera.
It does seem though that for the future of the Ikon, a digital version would be necessary. Even the Wetzlarians had to come to that conclusion.
V
varjag
Guest
No existing usable digital camera works this way.ronnie_retro said:
From the actual cost of Leica body (regardless the margin they make over it) the cost of low production volume, low yield, special design sensor can easily comprise half. Making large surface sensor is not cheap. Putting them in precision hand-made chassis is not cheap. When you add all that, you end up with about with M8 costs.
Flyfisher Tom
Well-known
peter_n said:That 28mm is a very tasty looking street lens.
Yes, but the 28/2.8 hexanon-m is already a pretty tasty bokeh king already
BillBingham2
Registered User
I think the new ZI lenses are designed with a digital sensor in mind. I am not sure of any that have elements sticking out the back. Not being an engineer in this field, perhaps retrofocus might be the term, that's as close as I can get.
I think that ZI must be interest in a Digital camera and will try to one up Leica. ZI has a been able to build a full suite of lenses around the idea of a full frame digitial body, where as Leica has to bring the past along. It's more of a marketing issue, but I think an important one.
I think we will see a ZI digital camera in the next year.
B2
I think that ZI must be interest in a Digital camera and will try to one up Leica. ZI has a been able to build a full suite of lenses around the idea of a full frame digitial body, where as Leica has to bring the past along. It's more of a marketing issue, but I think an important one.
I think we will see a ZI digital camera in the next year.
B2
CJP6008
Established
Perhaps a part of the high cost of the M8 and indeed most top end digital cameras is the ferocious R&D spend involved in just being in the digital market. The technology is moving so fast that cameras are outdated just about every 6 months. Each unit has to go out at a high cost as the production run will not be long. Top of the range film SLRs had production runs of up to 10 years - Nikon have only just got to the F6 in about 40 years! The F5 was out there for years. Improvements in films updated the camera so to speak.
The game has changed beyond all recognition. Camera companies are having to adapt to production cycles much more like those of computer manufacturers or leave the market. Perhaps another reason for Zeiss to hold off the digital thing is that they have only just got back into camera making. It makes sense to do the learning in less choppy waters before deciding to plunge into the raging torrent that is the digital market. At the risk of pushing this metaphor too far - it remains to be seen if that torrent will, like the Niagra Rapids, end in a huge whirlpool sucking all to their doom. Certainly the advent of camera 'phone with multi-megapixel chips in could tear into the comsumer digital market, especially as the 'phones are so highly subsidised by the networks. In the pro-world there is a lot of talk of photojournalists moving to shooting video as news becomes a commodity more and more disseminated via TV and the internet rather than in print. Some commentators have predicted the demise of all specialist camera makers save perhaps Canon who also make video cameras.
Who knows where it will go but who would have predicted camera phones 10 years ago? What ever happens I think the phot industry is in for a bumpy ride.
The game has changed beyond all recognition. Camera companies are having to adapt to production cycles much more like those of computer manufacturers or leave the market. Perhaps another reason for Zeiss to hold off the digital thing is that they have only just got back into camera making. It makes sense to do the learning in less choppy waters before deciding to plunge into the raging torrent that is the digital market. At the risk of pushing this metaphor too far - it remains to be seen if that torrent will, like the Niagra Rapids, end in a huge whirlpool sucking all to their doom. Certainly the advent of camera 'phone with multi-megapixel chips in could tear into the comsumer digital market, especially as the 'phones are so highly subsidised by the networks. In the pro-world there is a lot of talk of photojournalists moving to shooting video as news becomes a commodity more and more disseminated via TV and the internet rather than in print. Some commentators have predicted the demise of all specialist camera makers save perhaps Canon who also make video cameras.
Who knows where it will go but who would have predicted camera phones 10 years ago? What ever happens I think the phot industry is in for a bumpy ride.
ronnie_retro
Established
Great Scott!
Great Scott!
A digital Zeiss with a phone built-in! That is so not right! Shudder.
But as you say, things are changing so fast now no one can have a crystal ball. My own guess is that when some number of years goes by and 24 X 36 mm
15 megapixel sensors can be had blister - packed at Walmart, if Zeiss is still making M-mount lenses they'll have to release a digital camera.
Thanks for all the posts - the big picture is murkier than I thought.
Great Scott!
A digital Zeiss with a phone built-in! That is so not right! Shudder.But as you say, things are changing so fast now no one can have a crystal ball. My own guess is that when some number of years goes by and 24 X 36 mm
15 megapixel sensors can be had blister - packed at Walmart, if Zeiss is still making M-mount lenses they'll have to release a digital camera.
Thanks for all the posts - the big picture is murkier than I thought.
Nachkebia
Well-known
Full frame zeiss ikon digital for $3000 ? yeah! why not!