I hope that will never happen to me

[gelmir]

I don't want to get into political talk here in what I consider a warm and friendly forum (which is quite rare in the internet world) but I just wanted to point out that sometimes or in troubled times, photography is considered by some people more than our beloved innocent hobby.

Just read what happened to Ian Spier, a student in photography, here.

 

[laurentvenet]

as we sometimes say in france : police everywhere, justice nowhere....

 

[Doug]

Well, police enforcement policy is not a monolithic thing; it responds to guidance/instruction from above based on changing safetly/security concerns. These security concerns have been in a greater state of flux now, I think, and will eventually shake out to reasonable and workable policies. Clearly, police policy in the US is responsive to public pressure and complaints from those affected by it.

I'd suspect the police officers in this incident might have been shaking their own heads over what they had to do too, but they've been told to be more vigilant about this kind of "suspicious" behavior! It'll work out... This from my own 10 years experience in the past as a volunteer and full-time police officer.

Here's my shot of the Hiram Chittenden locks in the Ballard district of Seattle, July 2003. Nobody lifted an eyebrow over my "spy" camera, a Pentax 67 with 45mm lens. 😎

 

[Nikon Bob]

I won't go near this thread with a 10 foot pole except to say that I have seen it degenerate very quickly into a right vs left wing shouting match at several other sites. Too bad because it is important.

Bob

 

[back alley]

I won't go near this thread with a 10 foot pole except to say that I have seen it degenerate very quickly into a right vs left wing shouting match at several other sites. Too bad because it is important.

Bob

but that's not gonna happen here, cause were sensitive artist types...

joe

 

[George S.]

I was expecting to read that the poor guy had been roughed up or something. Big deal, he had to show them his I.D. He should give up photography and take up writing for those "daytime dramas" we have in the U.S., otherwise known as soap operas. You'd think he had to sumit to a body cabvity search instead of just showing his I.D. (Humiliated?)

I guess the notebook rubbed some witness the wrong way, but you can't blame the police, they were just following up on a report that someone made. They had no choice.

I'd be more upset if the story was that the police initiated the talk with him, and had threatened him with arrest if he continued to take photos. That's what the signs say all around some NYC bridges and subways. Now THAT'S another story.....

 

[Nikon Bob]

Joe

You were saying?

Bob

 

[back alley]

lol

joe

 

[dmr]

Just read what happened to Ian Spier, a student in photography,

I just read Ian's article and the incident report, and it does hit home. 🙁 I don't think I've mentioned this here, but twice in the past year I've been not really confronted, but maybe "advised", once by a maintenance guy and another time by another amateur photographer, that what I was photographing (transit systems) might not be cool.

I am not a lawyer, but a good friend of mine is. He's a practicing attorney and an administrative law judge. I asked him for his opinion on just this topic. This was at a local bar after a club meeting, so this was not on-the-clock legal advice, but I'm sure it's quite authoritative.

He said that the law is unclear and untested (particularly since 9-11) as to the reporting and recording of suspicious activity. He said that the cops themselves don't really know what they should and should not do.

The "advice" portion of his comments was that if you are confronted, you should do anything and everything in your power to avoid escalating the situation. Meaning, don't push things, put your camera away, apologize, and get out of the area. Direct quote: "Let the guy win."

He said he knew that it appears to trample our rights, but he said the best thing to do in these times is to not push things. (He is a very staunch libertarian.)

We discussed what law might be broken here, and he said flat-out that most likely no law was broken, unless of course you are photographing in a military base or courtroom or something like that which is covered in the statutes.

Legal lesson for that night: If you are summoned (given a ticket) or arrested, there must be a statute cited on the complaint, meaning they must state clearly which law(s) they suspect have been broken.

He said that if you are confronted, even if you did no wrong, and you make a fuss, you may get cited or even arrested for any of several catch-all offenses, such as disorderly conduct. He said that the cops DO have quite a bit of authority in these cases, even though you may have done nothing, and even if you have a good chance of having your case dismissed. "You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride."

I know this is not what anybody wants to hear 🙁 but I tend to listen to those who know the legal system better than I do.

When I have some time I'll summarize the times I was advised not to shoot and post links to the photos. 🙂 I'm being pulled 3 ways at this second so I'll just post this part here for now.

 

[Nikon Bob]

Joe

Who is laughing!

Bob

 

[back alley]

it's cool so far bob.

i just don't want a war.

joe

 

[gelmir]

I won't go near this thread with a 10 foot pole except to say that I have seen it degenerate very quickly into a right vs left wing shouting match at several other sites. Too bad because it is important.
Bob

I won't too, I prefer by far live discussion with people sitting in front of me 🙂 It's so easy to argue endlessy on the internet. May you guys just read that and think about it a little bit, I'm not looking for any comments. Hanging around taking pictures and ending up beeing watched by federal agents is kind of surreal for me...

Anyway, moderators please close the thread if it degenerates.

 

[Fedzilla_Bob]

Erosion of civil liberties is a problem for all. I don't care which side of center one stands.

I like to photograph trains. I would hope my innocent interest doesn't garner unwanted attention.

Seems to me that totalitarian regimes (left or right) have been the worst cases in modern history. In Tito's Yugoslavia, tourists were often discouraged from photographing the trains. I have heard similar reports regarding the PRC. So, maybe in the US we are just late to the party. 🙂

What makes me laugh is any saboteur/terrorist worth their salt wouldn't be quite so obvious. Would they? Public officials tend to react to the obvious and overlook what they can't imagine.

Perhaps a new genre of social art could form as a result- seriptitious photography.. Oh, wait... cell phone cams. Not much of a leap from dorks taking photos up women's skirts to a photo from a cell phone during a Pentagon tour. 😉

 

[SolaresLarrave]

Fedzilla Bob is right. Just consider: if an individual is really gathering information with the intention to cause harm... would this person go and photograph something conspicuously with, say, a MF camera?

Not in my book. Spies tend to be a little smarter than that.

However, as Doug points out, these same officers are under pressure, so they act differently and not like they ordinarily would.

As for me... I simply don't photograph things that may bring undue attention to me as a shooter. Thus far, I've managed to go unscathed, but let me knock on wood... And probably devote my life to family snapshots! 🙂

 

[Socke]

Just don't get caught 🙂

Bunker at the bay of Matanzas, Cuba October 2004

 

[Fedzilla_Bob]

Doug is definitely right. The police are often expected to interpret laws that even the lawmakers have'nt thought through very well. Also, they are often confronted with indignant self-righteous individuals who aren't wise enough to know when to just move along.

Sometimes moving along a very fast pace is the right way to handle it 😀

(Bob remembers running very quickly from the robin's egg blue helmeted police at May Day in DC in may of 1970, clutching his big sisters Mamiya Sekor. The day he learned that large out-of-shape park policemen are no match in speed for a 15 year old filled with adrenaline. :angel: )

 

[iMacfan]

I think that the point being made here is how something is done makes a big difference. So what, he was asked for ID - BUT maybe it could have been done with more tact and sense.

 

[Fedzilla_Bob]

Frankly- Having re-read the article, I find it just plain sad. I can only imagine how it started and for fear of dragging this fine forum into mud I won't go into a whole lot of detail.

I imagine someone seeing this guy and making a bigger issue about it than was called for. Again, the cops are in the middle- between overzealous citizens and Feds. But then too, so was Ian Spiers. In the middle, that is.

I have visited that same location. In that community Mr. Spiers probably stood out a bit. Not to make fun of the situation but sometimes "It ain't easy being brown." Given his account he was stuck in a very crappy situation being handled by some rather inept individuals. Given the location and that there are frequently photographers at that location, it is very suspect that the camera was given as the reason.

I am glad to see that he sought a police record of the incident. Too bad though, when he seeks a job that can actually show up in a background search.

Perhaps one shouldn't go quitely away.

 

[Macbeth 2003]

it is very simple. You do NOT have to show ID to a police officer. What if you didn't drive, so had no drivers licence, etc. There has to be a reason fot hetm to do this. A police officer cannot detain you simply because he wants to or someone else wants him too. Now having said that it was silly to not give him the ID. Give him the Id make copious notes of what happened, and call the ACLU. Don't take the risk of tivcking off a cop who is clearly enjoying his autority a litttle too much. BTW that comment was meant only to apply to the specific police officers mentioned here. NOT as a general comment on the many fine police officers there are.

 

[George S.]

I'm even wondering if these specific police officers acted as the photographer stated. Come on, can't you see that he played everything up in his article? He's a good writer for sure, and we'll never know the REAL truth, nor if there really WAS that tone of voice and all what that tone really inferred to him.

We all seem to agree that the police were caught in the middle, and had to go through the motions. I know some of you think that they (the P.D.)can act like stormtroopers whenever they want to, but the reality is there are many members of the public, their superior officers, and many beaurocrats looking over their shoulders that they had better do only what's expected of them in any given situation.

I agree that any half-intelligent terrorist seeking his 72 virgins can think of more subtle ways to get information than parading around with a RF around his neck. You could probably get the plans and step-by-step construction articles for any subway, bridge, or other structure right off the internet, or even a tourist brochure. There's plenty of info with color pictures right in them.