Leica LTM I know prices are up, but, really?

Leica M39 screw mount bodies/lenses
tom.w.bn said:
And what's exactly the difference in the meaning?
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The former refers to the crazy market of collectors, mine refers to the market of crazy collectors, which in my opinion is more accurate regarding the source of the craziness.

After all it's hardly the market that is being crazy, rather than the participants in it.
 
A premium for the serial number--it's alleged to be the 100,000th Leica, as they started at No.101...

Regards,
D.
 
People, you have to understand something about Selling 101. It has nothing to do with the item, they could be trading ****, it's all about what someone is willing to pay for ANYTHING, it's about exchanging money. It's not that the leica is worth this and that much, it's what people are willing to pay for whatever item, and thus create a economic level of money for any given item.

Why do you think people pay millions for paintings? Because they give a rats-ass or they know ANYTHING about paintings? No, most of them are absolute idiots with money, they INVEST in SOMETHING/ANYTHING that people are willing to see as "this thing has A value" and sit on it, and resell for profit in 10 years time. It's that easy.

Same thing with this.

You put it at a high costs, see if someone grabs it, thus this item now sort of has this price, or the range of it, and thus you create an artificial, synthetic VALUE of an item (could be any item).
 
D.O'K. said:
A premium for the serial number--it's alleged to be the 100,000th Leica, as they started at No.101...
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I think my M5's serial number ends in 101, too.... Seems I lucked out if that makes it worth extra $$$.
 
As far as I know, serial numbers were allocated in batches tp specific models -- II, III, Standard, IIIa, 250FF, and so forth -- and not all serial numbers were always taken up. That's quite apart from prototypes and *models (re-used serial numbers), so I'd be astonished if this were in fact the 100,000th Leica, quite apart from the fact that to the best of my recollection the first production serial number was 131 and not 101. But if they can find someone to pay it, best of luck to them.

Cheers,

R.
 
I would definitely not say "good luck to them" or be complacent about this kind of pricing. I saw a similar thing happen with vintage watches ten years ago. A small number of dealers realised there was a finite supply and, partly thanks to the internet, an insatiable and growing demand and effectively cornered the market for certain models, pushing their asking prices higher and higher and fixing - that's not too strong a word for it - auction prices until the watches they had in their over stocked safes were worth 10 or in a few cases 100 times more than they had paid for them.
This matters because it effectively forces the ordinary user (like me) out of the market. When my Leica II is actually worth 4,000 euros will I be happy to continue using it? In the past year I have seen asking prices for even common accessories such as green slip on A36 filters leap from 5 - 10 euros to typically 30 or 40. Strangely enough the fact they don't sell does not result in asking prices being lowered
Just to be clear I am not talking about the rarities, the one offs or the true collectors' items which will always be worth a big premium, I am talking about the sort of thing you used to find at camera fairs for a few pounds, for which there is no apparent shortage of supply. There are still many decent buys but when I see the prices some eBay dealers are asking I have to wonder whether their moitive is a realistic expectation that someone will pay it or, more likely, an attempt to shift the price point upwards.
eBay itself is to blame for much of this because a few years ago it decided to turn its back on the collectors and hobbyists who had built into the world's largest online market place and concentrate on retailers/dealers. Instead of auctions starting .99 cents they encouraged BIN prices and the dealers know that even if their doesn't sell the perception of value will have moved ever upward.
I think it's a shame which is why I am usually suspicious of the many blatant attempts to "talk up" prices which have infected vintage watch forums in the recent past. I hope that doesn't happen in the case of vintage cameras but I fear it is inevitable.
 
rxmd said:
I'd move the apostrophe one letter to the right and call it a crazy collectors' market.
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Thanks for nit-picking the grammar on a reply I wrote while I was half asleep.
But yeah, you're right.
 
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Simon Bruxelles said:
I would definitely not say "good luck to them" or be complacent about this kind of pricing. I saw a similar thing happen with vintage watches ten years ago. A small number of dealers realised there was a finite supply and, partly thanks to the internet, an insatiable and growing demand and effectively cornered the market for certain models, pushing their asking prices higher and higher and fixing - that's not too strong a word for it - auction prices until the watches they had in their over stocked safes were worth 10 or in a few cases 100 times more than they had paid for them.
This matters because it effectively forces the ordinary user (like me) out of the market. When my Leica II is actually worth 4,000 euros will I be happy to continue using it? In the past year I have seen asking prices for even common accessories such as green slip on A36 filters leap from 5 - 10 euros to typically 30 or 40. Strangely enough the fact they don't sell does not result in asking prices being lowered
Just to be clear I am not talking about the rarities, the one offs or the true collectors' items which will always be worth a big premium, I am talking about the sort of thing you used to find at camera fairs for a few pounds, for which there is no apparent shortage of supply. There are still many decent buys but when I see the prices some eBay dealers are asking I have to wonder whether their moitive is a realistic expectation that someone will pay it or, more likely, an attempt to shift the price point upwards.
eBay itself is to blame for much of this because a few years ago it decided to turn its back on the collectors and hobbyists who had built into the world's largest online market place and concentrate on retailers/dealers. Instead of auctions starting .99 cents they encouraged BIN prices and the dealers know that even if their doesn't sell the perception of value will have moved ever upward.
I think it's a shame which is why I am usually suspicious of the many blatant attempts to "talk up" prices which have infected vintage watch forums in the recent past. I hope that doesn't happen in the case of vintage cameras but I fear it is inevitable.
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Dear Simon,

Hold on. We're talking about luxury toys here. No-one needs vintage watches or screw-mount Leicas. When I started buying Leica kit in about 1969-70, a lot of prices were a great deal lower in real terms than they are today. In the mid 70s, prices went so high that I cashed in: the money was worth more to me than the cameras.

Prices today in real terms for much of the rare stuff are 5-10x higher than when I sold, or more, but 'cooking' (user) Leicas and lenses have not gone up much in inflation-adjusted terms.

What you're complaining about, really, is that more people are encroaching upon a preserve that some of us occupied decades ago. And? Why shouldn't they? Why are we entitled to buy rare things, cheaply? And when it comes to ripping off the financially overprivileged who do not know much about Leica history, I can't feel too sorry for the 'victims'.

Cheers,

R.
 
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Roger Hicks said:
...Hold on. We're talking about luxury toys here. No-one needs vintage watches or screw-mount Leicas. ...
What you're complaining about, really, is that more people are encroaching upon a preserve that some of us occupied decades ago. And? Why shouldn't they? Why are we entitled to buy rare things, cheaply? ....
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I agree with the above, collectors can't complain when more collectors come about. As far as pricing, the internet has been a two edged sword; you have MUCH more of any collectible on the market every week, but you have MANY more people becoming aware and interested in collectibles. The items that you used to have to search for, and maybe see once in a lifetime, now come out of the woodwork as sellers find an easy way to market their old stuff.

Now on BIN prices, it's not even worth commenting when you see a high one. An asking price is not a selling price. I see BINs hundreds of times higher than the going price all the time. And the market will ignore it unless some random duffus comes along. There is a lady trying to sell a vintage Heliar LF lens on FeeBay. For some reason she's decided a $600 lens is worth $2800. I talked to her to no avail, and have watched her starting bid price drop by several hundred each week. Eventually it will sell, for about $600 like I told her.
 
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