burancap
Veteran
Sound good. Tri-X it is. It is the fresher roll too, both from the fridge and exposed. The C-H will bring Iodized Salt into play, but I am going by the book (to the letter) on this mix. One other consideration could well be T, as mentioned several times. I am pouring right at about 20C, maybe a tick below, as it will rise via ambient in the room. I may try dropping it a tick lower before pouring.
burancap
Veteran
Hmmm. Haw. I am not so sure I love the smell anymore! LOL
The Tri-X was a step in the right direction, but the negatives are still dense. Much better this time, but nowhere near where I wanted to be. I wish it was 1985, college, and film was free -I think this is a bit too experimental for me at this point in my life. It is a good bit more effort than I had anticipated as well!
Now, I do love the concept, and as the examples here and elsewhere show, it can certainly be a viable alternative to traditional methods. Thanks so much for the guidance and encouragement!
The Tri-X was a step in the right direction, but the negatives are still dense. Much better this time, but nowhere near where I wanted to be. I wish it was 1985, college, and film was free -I think this is a bit too experimental for me at this point in my life. It is a good bit more effort than I had anticipated as well!
Now, I do love the concept, and as the examples here and elsewhere show, it can certainly be a viable alternative to traditional methods. Thanks so much for the guidance and encouragement!
znapper
Well-known
I haven't followed the whole thread, but what recipe are you using?
I suggest that people stop using Americanized "teaspoon" versions of the original recipes, if they are. (you don't seem to do that, good on you)
The original recipe use a SCALE to gauge the amount of ingredients (and one should with any solid).
- Make sure you have a scale that weigh in 0.1g increments (also known as a 'druggie-scale' where I live), a normal 1g increment kitchen-scale is rarely accurate enough.
Are you using water-free soda?
Put some 100g in a kettle and heat it to around 80-100 degrees celcius in the oven for 10 minutes, then weigh it to see if it got lighter, if not, it's water free.
This:
Trials I've seen suggest Caffenol C-M for 15 minutes, 20 degrees celcius.
The Caffenol C-H (RS) recipe is:
1. Washing soda 40g/l (this is the RS part, where you use 3/4th of the original CH-amount)
2. Vitamin-C 16g/l
3. Coffee 40g/l
4. Potassium Bromide 1g/l
Dev for 14,5 minutes at 20 degrees ceicius (1 minute initial inversion of the tank, then 3 inversions/min for the remainder).
Should work just fine, if you follow the correct recipe, have good ingredients, and weigh your solids.
For tests and trials and discussions about this and other films, the caffenol.blogspot.com is a very good resource.
I suggest that people stop using Americanized "teaspoon" versions of the original recipes, if they are. (you don't seem to do that, good on you)
The original recipe use a SCALE to gauge the amount of ingredients (and one should with any solid).
- Make sure you have a scale that weigh in 0.1g increments (also known as a 'druggie-scale' where I live), a normal 1g increment kitchen-scale is rarely accurate enough.
Are you using water-free soda?
Put some 100g in a kettle and heat it to around 80-100 degrees celcius in the oven for 10 minutes, then weigh it to see if it got lighter, if not, it's water free.
This:
Trials I've seen suggest Caffenol C-M for 15 minutes, 20 degrees celcius.
The Caffenol C-H (RS) recipe is:
1. Washing soda 40g/l (this is the RS part, where you use 3/4th of the original CH-amount)
2. Vitamin-C 16g/l
3. Coffee 40g/l
4. Potassium Bromide 1g/l
Dev for 14,5 minutes at 20 degrees ceicius (1 minute initial inversion of the tank, then 3 inversions/min for the remainder).
Should work just fine, if you follow the correct recipe, have good ingredients, and weigh your solids.
For tests and trials and discussions about this and other films, the caffenol.blogspot.com is a very good resource.
02Pilot
Malcontent
Well, if you haven't been put off completely, you might try a little experiment. Take a roll of film, shoot maybe six frames of the same scene at ascending or descending exposures. Put the camera in a dark bag and cut off the exposed section of the roll and move it directly to your dev tank. Mix up a standard batch of the appropriate Caffenol recipe and develop to whatever baseline you set. Based on the results, shoot another six frames of the same scene at the same exposures and develop with adjusted time. Repeat until you achieve satisfactory results. The Caffenol will work consistently as long as you keep the temps consistent; I've developed up to three rolls with the same batch used within a week or so of mixing. A little time-consuming, but you'll only use part of a roll of film and one batch of developer.
burancap
Veteran
@znapper, thanks for responding. Your post looks and reads pretty much as what I did. Variances were that I did treat the soda as 10% water and adjusted what I though was appropriate. Iodized salt was used ILO of KBr and adjusted appropriately. I also ran for 15 minutes, rather than 14.5.
@02Pilot, I like the idea of testing and may consider it. Discounting the initial PAN run, the Tri-X appeared dense and still fairly dark. Seemed to be some sprocket hole burn. All detail fell off at about 60% and darker. Very grainy. Of 27 frames, I might have 3 or 4 that are workable.
My C is good as is my soda, though I am going to retest for water content. This alone could be critical. My Pilon Espresso may be questionable and as I see Nescafé being used a lot out there, I am willing to change that out. What do you folks use/recommend?
@02Pilot, I like the idea of testing and may consider it. Discounting the initial PAN run, the Tri-X appeared dense and still fairly dark. Seemed to be some sprocket hole burn. All detail fell off at about 60% and darker. Very grainy. Of 27 frames, I might have 3 or 4 that are workable.
My C is good as is my soda, though I am going to retest for water content. This alone could be critical. My Pilon Espresso may be questionable and as I see Nescafé being used a lot out there, I am willing to change that out. What do you folks use/recommend?
02Pilot
Malcontent
I started with Nescafe for the same reason you mention it, but I've switched over to the cheapest local supermarket store-brand I can get. This is one place where you do not want high-quality arabica coffee. Any widely-available instant coffee (no decaf!) that doesn't cost a kidney should be suitable.
How much base fog did you have on the negatives? If that was heavy, you'll need more salt. This issue was what eventually pushed me to just get some KBr and be done with it.
I found grain was much more pronounced in Tri-X with the standard versus the reduced soda recipe. Not sure how this might be relevant, unless you overcompensated with the amount of soda. Are you sure it is a decahydrate soda?
Something is causing your developer to work too quickly, either lack of adequate restrainer or an imbalance in the recipe. You should not be seeing that kind of density.
How much base fog did you have on the negatives? If that was heavy, you'll need more salt. This issue was what eventually pushed me to just get some KBr and be done with it.
I found grain was much more pronounced in Tri-X with the standard versus the reduced soda recipe. Not sure how this might be relevant, unless you overcompensated with the amount of soda. Are you sure it is a decahydrate soda?
Something is causing your developer to work too quickly, either lack of adequate restrainer or an imbalance in the recipe. You should not be seeing that kind of density.
sreed2006
Well-known
I have a lot of Efke film, and have had the most horrible problem with white spots in the pictures. Someone named the white spots "dandruff" and that is what it looks like.
This thread inspired me to try Caffenol. Either I was extremely lucky, or this stuff is great. No dandruff, and no visible grain in the expanse of the sky.
Here's one from my first try. Details are in the comments at Flickr.
VW Dune Buggy by sreed2006, on Flickr
This thread inspired me to try Caffenol. Either I was extremely lucky, or this stuff is great. No dandruff, and no visible grain in the expanse of the sky.
Here's one from my first try. Details are in the comments at Flickr.
VW Dune Buggy by sreed2006, on Flickr
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znapper
Well-known
Great result!
Although I am not so sure that Caffenol somehow saved the day.
EFKE can have issues, but from my understanding, this stems from the producion-process and (lack of) quality control, rather than the developer.
(in any case, one should take great care to avoid dust and to use filtered water for every liquid, to avoid minerals and specs on the negatives, which can also cause "dandruff" ).
Although I am not so sure that Caffenol somehow saved the day.
EFKE can have issues, but from my understanding, this stems from the producion-process and (lack of) quality control, rather than the developer.
(in any case, one should take great care to avoid dust and to use filtered water for every liquid, to avoid minerals and specs on the negatives, which can also cause "dandruff" ).
john neal
fallor ergo sum
Jeff,
Interesting. I haven't done an awful lot of Cafeenol, but have found that iodised salt in (I think) Caffenol-CH, but may have been cl, was definitely a good way to go. I found that stand development with Plus-X and Double-X was better than any inversion method I could come up with - something around 45 mins with 10 initial inversions and 3 every 15 minutes. Gave good negs that were emminently scannable.
I also tried on some slower films (ISO 50) but found these a bit dense - 30 minutes stand might have been better for these, but they certainly were not thin!
I have been mostly digital recently, but have found 4 or 5 films that need processing, so will probably roll out the coffee mill again shortly.
PS - Have a look at page 25 of the Caffenol cookbook in the paragraph headed "Never overdo agitation"
Interesting. I haven't done an awful lot of Cafeenol, but have found that iodised salt in (I think) Caffenol-CH, but may have been cl, was definitely a good way to go. I found that stand development with Plus-X and Double-X was better than any inversion method I could come up with - something around 45 mins with 10 initial inversions and 3 every 15 minutes. Gave good negs that were emminently scannable.
I also tried on some slower films (ISO 50) but found these a bit dense - 30 minutes stand might have been better for these, but they certainly were not thin!
I have been mostly digital recently, but have found 4 or 5 films that need processing, so will probably roll out the coffee mill again shortly.
PS - Have a look at page 25 of the Caffenol cookbook in the paragraph headed "Never overdo agitation"
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burancap
Veteran
Sid, GREAT results!
I was convinced I was going to buy some new HC-110 after this weekend! Hmmm...
I was convinced I was going to buy some new HC-110 after this weekend! Hmmm...
burancap
Veteran
John, I was considering moving over to stand as a last ditch. Seems most folks have had great success with it and Caffenol.
sreed2006
Well-known
znapper, the "dandruff" on Efke has been my biggest problem with that brand of film, and that was with D-76, HC-110, and R09 (Rodinal). I have used Kodak Indicator Stop at stock strength, at highly diluted strength, and finally resorted to distilled water for the stop. The spots never went away. The spots on the negatives are not all caused by dust. I handled these negatives the same way as the others, and these turned almost spotless.
Today, I processed a couple more rolls of Efke 100 in caffenol, and still have no white spots everywhere. I am, however, getting a lot of fog. Combined with the internal flair of the Yashica TLR, it makes some of the pictures difficult to post process, because they lack contrast. Still, I have some keepers.
Here's one where getting the contrast correct is difficult.
William Blair, Jr. Park, Dallas, TX by sreed2006, on Flickr
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sreed2006
Well-known
burancap, that picture did turn out very well, I think.
I mixed up more Caffenol C-M(RS) last night, and changed the recipe to add iodized salt (1 gram per liter), then left the brew sitting over night for use this morning. I processed more rolls of the Efke R100 today and today's results are not quite as impressive. For Caffenol C-M(RS), leave out the iodized salt, and use the developer soon after it is mixed (but cooled down the 20C).
Still, the two problems I've had with this film, the white spots and the grain in the sky, are solved with Caffenol, which makes me quite pleased.
02Pilot
Malcontent
It may be worth noting that not all iodized salts are equal. Somewhere in the fine print you can find just how much iodine (the active restrainer) is in the salt. If you're getting excessive development or fog, and are committed to salt over KBr, it might be worth checking.
seblock
Established
Jeff, dont give up on Caffenol yet! It takes some time of experimenting in the beginning to get the perfect balance of ingredients. This may vary a lot from the "official" recipes due to individual preferences, water quality, amount of agitation, temperature, restrainer and so on. There just is no "perfect" recipe. But once you got figured out what serves your needs you will get decent images. For not wasting too much film in the beginning, i also recommend cutting a roll of film into several strips and test different recipes.
When my negs were too dense in the beginning i found out that my temperature was too hot because the water gets slightly warmer when the soda is diluted. So its important to get the temperature right after the working solution is ready to go, not before mixing all parts together.
I prefer a semi-stand method with the C-C-L recipe and i do agitate a couple of times at 2-4-8 and so on to get even developed negs for i have had trouble with that in complete stand methode. I also use potassium bromide (KBr) as a restrainer which i think works very good. I just did two different rolls of APX, one with about .6g/l KBr, the other one with about 1.2g/l. Both rolls are very good and you can see the slightly less density overall on the 1.2 roll. This is a very good way to control the strength of the development.
TMX in CCL
APX 100 (old) in CCL
You should definitely give stand (or semi-stand) development a try, im sure it will work for you!
Cheers
Sebastian
When my negs were too dense in the beginning i found out that my temperature was too hot because the water gets slightly warmer when the soda is diluted. So its important to get the temperature right after the working solution is ready to go, not before mixing all parts together.
I prefer a semi-stand method with the C-C-L recipe and i do agitate a couple of times at 2-4-8 and so on to get even developed negs for i have had trouble with that in complete stand methode. I also use potassium bromide (KBr) as a restrainer which i think works very good. I just did two different rolls of APX, one with about .6g/l KBr, the other one with about 1.2g/l. Both rolls are very good and you can see the slightly less density overall on the 1.2 roll. This is a very good way to control the strength of the development.
TMX in CCL
APX 100 (old) in CCL
You should definitely give stand (or semi-stand) development a try, im sure it will work for you!
Cheers
Sebastian
john neal
fallor ergo sum
Jeff, I would say, give it a try - also see what Sebastian said too. I had one batch where the temp was about 5 degrees C too high and it gave very dense negs (simple user error).
I have not used KBr yet, only Iodised salt, and think it has a lot to do with your water type which works better. We have a fairly neutral water at home - not too hard or soft, and (as far as I know) it is not flouridated, maybe that has an impact too? I know that the washing soda quality makes a big difference - I can't get completely anhydrous, so have to add extra into the mix, I think there is info on the old Caffeenol site about that.
Definitely worth a few experiments as the results can be absolutely superb with lovely gradation from full white to black. I'm sure the process is far better than my photography can take advantage of.
burancap
Veteran
Well, I am willing to give it another shot. I am going with stand this time and the Arista Premium 100 (Plus-X), maybe Fomapan 100.
But, I need to buy:
1.) different instant coffee
2.) KBr
3.) a scale that is accurate to .01g at a minimum.
Now regarding temperature. What do you do with stand? I mean, honestly, stand has a set-it-and-forget-it meaning to me, so with an ambient of 23C:
1.) pour at 20C and let it rise
2.) pour at ~17C and let it average
3.) pour at 20C and maintain a controlled steady 20C outer bath
4.) pour yourself a coffee and go watch 4 episodes of Spongebob
Thanks!
But, I need to buy:
1.) different instant coffee
2.) KBr
3.) a scale that is accurate to .01g at a minimum.
Now regarding temperature. What do you do with stand? I mean, honestly, stand has a set-it-and-forget-it meaning to me, so with an ambient of 23C:
1.) pour at 20C and let it rise
2.) pour at ~17C and let it average
3.) pour at 20C and maintain a controlled steady 20C outer bath
4.) pour yourself a coffee and go watch 4 episodes of Spongebob
Thanks!
john neal
fallor ergo sum
Jeff,
I wish I could have an ambient of 23C!
What I did, using the old Legacy 100 (Fuji?), was make the mix and let it settle at 20C - 21C and then poured into the tank, agitate for 10 -15 seconds and stand in a water bath at 20C.
Agitate 3 - 5 times at 15 and 30 minutes, pour out at 45 minutes and wash, fix, wash as per normal. At 23C I would probably drop the time to 30 minutes total for a trial film.
I use the cheapest instant coffee I can find (Aldi or Lidl in the UK) and Saxa iodised salt - I forget the name of the washing soda, but it is in a green (?) package from a UK store called Home Bargains and is about 80p for 500g. The vit C is powder from a health food store, not really cheap or expensive, but a ready source other than online.
My scales (0.01g acuracy, they tell me) were only cheap digital ones from the great video game - only about 4 pounds and two weeks from HK to me (shipping included IIRC).
You could shoot a test film and try all four of your options. Personally, I wouldn't go for #4, as I never drink the stuff
Best of luck - let us know how you get on
I wish I could have an ambient of 23C!
What I did, using the old Legacy 100 (Fuji?), was make the mix and let it settle at 20C - 21C and then poured into the tank, agitate for 10 -15 seconds and stand in a water bath at 20C.
Agitate 3 - 5 times at 15 and 30 minutes, pour out at 45 minutes and wash, fix, wash as per normal. At 23C I would probably drop the time to 30 minutes total for a trial film.
I use the cheapest instant coffee I can find (Aldi or Lidl in the UK) and Saxa iodised salt - I forget the name of the washing soda, but it is in a green (?) package from a UK store called Home Bargains and is about 80p for 500g. The vit C is powder from a health food store, not really cheap or expensive, but a ready source other than online.
My scales (0.01g acuracy, they tell me) were only cheap digital ones from the great video game - only about 4 pounds and two weeks from HK to me (shipping included IIRC).
You could shoot a test film and try all four of your options. Personally, I wouldn't go for #4, as I never drink the stuff
Best of luck - let us know how you get on
02Pilot
Malcontent
Lots of different ways to go, but thankfully stand is pretty forgiving. If you've got an ambient of 23C, I'd probably start it a little cool and let it warm up, if you're doing full stand; if semi-stand, then maybe a little cooler still. I've never tried it myself, but I've seen good, very fine-grained results from someone who does full stand in the refrigerator(!) with HP5+.
Fernando2
Well-known
I love Caffenol.
I use it with microfilm (Agfa Copex Rapid in 135 and 120) with great results.
A few shots from Spello, Italy:
I use it with microfilm (Agfa Copex Rapid in 135 and 120) with great results.
A few shots from Spello, Italy: