I want a Zeiss Ikon.. Tell me why I shouldn't do it..

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brian steinberger

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I'm a rangefinder man all the way. I currently have two Mamiya 6's and two Bronica RF645's. These are my babies. I do all my work with them. I love working in medium format. But over the last year I've seen alot of really great 35mm work, all with Leica's or Zeiss's.. etc. It really got me longing for a Zeiss Ikon. You can buy them new with a 50/2 planar for just over 2k at B&H. That's certainly affordable compared to a Leica, even a used Leica.

half of me is trying to talk myself into it, and half of me is trying to talk myself out of it. My main problem besides the cost is I'm not sure why I really NEED it. What situations would I prefer the 35mm RF? I can think of a few. Low light. The 50/2 is fast, much faster than all my MF RF lenses which are pretty much all f/4. But why couldn't I shoot the RF645 with some Delta 3200? Wouldn't the grain be similar between a 6x4.5 3200 shot compared to a 35mm pushed Tri-x or HP5 shot?? But the grain is just lovely in 35mm IMHO, and the images that are made with Zeiss/Leica glass are just special, they really are. They just have a soul to them, they speak to you. That is the main reason I want one. It would also help me to photograph people more, something I don't do very often.

I'd just like some thoughts and suggestions....

Thanks!
 
My good friend Riccis was a Leica man like I am. Recently he switched to MF's like you have. I must say he does quite well with it. But recently he confessed that he still has a Leica. Get the ZI and you will be glad you did. Small, stealthy and a fast lenses. Yes.
 
Hi Brian,

I had an early ZI (as a matter of fact, the first batch when black paint version was produced) and sold it after a year. I don't normally sell my gears. But, after some comparison with M6 TTL, I realized that ZI does not fit me. Some considerations:

Pros of ZI:
- Light(er) and compact like any Leica Ms
- The best viewfinder, hands down
- Works with all M-mount fast lenses
- Easier film change/loading mechanism
- Up to 1/2000
- Not as recognizable
- Film type window

Cons of ZI (comparing to M6 TTL or Ms with TTL)
- The shutter sound (feeling) is not as solid (my main reason of ditching the ZI)
- Maybe, it's just me that I feel the ZI shutter vibrates a little more.
- Unsuccessful films loading twice (I got too used to Leica post M4 loading mechanism)
- When the black paint starts wearing out, it shows silver metal color, not brass

I don't think MF RFs are as portable and quiet. If your shooting style calls for these benefits, 35mm RF has a upper hand. And the cons above overshadow the pros for me. So, I wound up sticking with M6TTL when I select a body with TTL.

Hope what I went through helps.

John
 
I can't offer any reasons not to get a ZI ... I still regret selling mine and was eyeing one in the classifieds the other day that was selling here in Oz for $850.00.

I intend moving back into a metered rangefinder body at some stage and it will be down to an M6 or the Zeiss.
 
Theres a financial crisis going on and a Zeiss isn't coming for free.

Just think of all the film you can feed the Bronicas with that Zeiss cash!
 
Thanks guys. I had the opportunity to use a Leica M6 for a little while and what I didn't like about it is although it offers metering it has no "A" setting. It's more like shutter priority. Flipping though the shutter speeds all the time to match up with the meter got really old. I prefer to work in A mode as this is how I work with my MF RF's. I prefer to choose aperture and let the camera meter. Maybe I didn't have enough experience with the Leica but I could operate my MF RF's much quicker and it was simply because of the presence of the A mode. The Zeiss Ikon has an A mode.
 
I believe you will find any current 35mm RF cameras, Leica or not, much noisier than your RF645 (focal plane shutter vs leaf shutter), but again they are also much more portable.

That's the main trade off you'll be facing. On the other hand, the ZI offers a superb viewfinder that eclipses most of the RFs out there, 35mm and MF. It's that good.

Get one and if you don't like it, there are always plenty of photogs screening the classifieds daily for it..
 
Man if you want quiet than only the M3 will do. About the same price as a ZI. And IMHO you will be a better photographer NOT having aperture preferred.
 
Go for it. Any concerns about fragile build or noisy shutter are overblown IMO. I bought a new Zeiss Ikon in April 2008 and have shot hundreds of rolls of film through it without any problem. I also used another ZI for my second body until succumbing to Leica lust and swapping it for an M7 last year. Big mistake. After almost a year trying to like the M7, I just don't feel the love. Sure the M7 is nicer to fondle, but the ZI is a better camera to shoot with for me. I travelled with the ZI and M7 for a month recently, and decided during that trip to replace the M7 with a second ZI. And I did that just last week for a great price. Happy again :)
 
certainly, the ZI is a competent camera.
metal shutter blades won't get pinholes in the sunlight, the camera is lighter, has a wonderful finder, the shutter release reacts very precisely on short trip. still i prefer the M4/M4-P and thus think of selling my black ZI. there is something ...

think twice!

(btw., MF is not for me but only because of the bulk)

cheers,
sebastian
 
I enjoyed my ZI-M and carried it every day for about three years. I sent it to the Zeiss USA to get the rangefinder adjusted about 18 months out and they did a great job. Ziess replaced the camera leather voluntarily (not really leather) at no cost.

The finder is superb. I liked the shutter. The camera is easy to carry.

The only reason I sold mine was because I decided smart phones would kill consumer film usage and before two long getting film developed would become inconvenient and expensive. unfortunately where I live this is exactly what happened.

The best reason not to get the ZI-M is it is not as tough as a Leica. If the ZI-M falls out of your Range Rover as you are bouncing around a savannah in Africa it probably won't survive while the Leica might. As mentioned above, the camera doe not brass but the finish (mine was silver) is pretty tough. Also, The exposure meter can be tricky to read in extremely bright light. I only had trouble with this a couple of times.
 
jonmanjiro said:
Go for it. Any concerns about fragile build or noisy shutter are overblown IMO. I bought a new Zeiss Ikon in April 2008 and have shot hundreds of rolls of film through it without any problem. I also used another ZI for my second body until succumbing to Leica lust and swapping it for an M7 last year. Big mistake. After almost a year trying to like the M7, I just don't feel the love. Sure the M7 is nicer to fondle, but the ZI is a better camera to shoot with for me. I travelled with the ZI and M7 for a month recently, and decided during that trip to replace the M7 with a second ZI. And I did that just last week for a great price. Happy again :)
Click to expand...

I see myself yearning for a M-mount body with AE function some times. Just switch on and shoot. What is it that you don't like about the M7, Jon?
 
I think ZI is a great camera, and build is completely comparable to Leica. Maybe not quite as good, but certainly in the same league. You will find it loud compared to the leaf shutters in a Mamiya 6, but so would a Leica.

If I were to trade my M3 for another 35mm range finder, it would be a ZI.
 
ZI is a great camera, and compared to the Leicas, it excels in low light shooting. The VF is huge, very clear, and the extended rangefinder base gives you extremely accurate focusing. I normally couple it with the Nokton 35/1.2, it would also make a great combo with the Noctilux. Generally, it handles bigger lenses well, because there is little obstruction in the VF.
A couple of exmples:
with Nokton 35/1.2

20090123 by mfogiel, on Flickr
and with Canon 50/1.2

20123429 by mfogiel, on Flickr
 
Vincent.G said:
I see myself yearning for a M-mount body with AE function some times. Just switch on and shoot. What is it that you don't like about the M7, Jon?
Click to expand...

Hi Vincent, ok here goes :)

Off the top of my head here's what I don't like about the M7:

* The M7 viewfinder window and rangefinder window are flush with the front of the body so I'm constantly unconsciously putting finger prints on them, thus reducing viewfinder/rangefinder contrast and thus reducing ease of focusing. It's not an issue on the ZI because the viewfinder and rangefinder windows are recessed slightly from the front plate which prevents me putting finger prints on them (mostly).

* The M7 rangefinder patch doesn't have the same pop and clarity as the ZI rangefinder patch. It's very good, but not as good as a ZI. When the ZI is in focus, the focus patch is amazingly clear.

* In terms of rangefinder alignment, the M7 is more sensitive to eye position than the ZI. With the M7, I often wonder if vertical alignment has been knocked out of adjustment only to realise that my eye is above or below (usually below) the right viewing angle. This also affects the pop and clearness of the rangefinder patch.

* The M7 ISO reader/dial is a bit flaky. On my previous M7 with mechanical DX reader, the reader sometimes didn't read the DX code properly (rewinding the film rewind crank a little to tension the film fixed it). On my current M7 with optical DX reader, the ISO dial on the camera back is very sensitive to positioning. It also reads incorrectly for a moment or two if bumped. There's no such problem with the ZI because there is no DX reader and you set the ISO using the dial combined with the shutter speed dial.

* With the M7, a little dot constantly blinks in the finder if the ISO is set to a setting different from film ISO, or if you're using exposure compensation, or if the DX reader is being flaky. There is no such blinking dot in the ZI's finder if the ISO is set to something different from the film, or if exposure compensation is used, and the ZI doesn't have a DX reader to misbehave.

* The M7 metering pattern is like a big spot. I prefer the ZI's more traditional center weighted metering pattern.

* With the M7, you have to take care not to burn a whole in the shutter cloth. That's not a problem with the ZI's metal shutter.

The M7 is not all bad though. I actually prefer its film loading over the ZI and like the fact that the focus patch is always centered in the frame line regardless of focus distance.
 
Take a look at http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subscription/zeiss.html, which is, I think, a pretty fair analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of the ZI.

Do not attach too much importance to thr rangeginder base length. From the review:
In keeping with the Zeiss tradition of providing better on-paper specifications than Leica, the 75mm base length is longer than the Leica M-series (68.8mm), though is is reduced to an effective base length (EBL) of 55.5mm by the 0.74x magnification of the Zeiss Ikon. The EBL of a 0.85x Leica is 3mm longer than the Zeiss Ikon's at 58.5mm; the most usual Leica finder, the 0.72x, gives an EBL of 49.5mm and the 0.58x is a mere 40mm. Most Bessa-R series have an EBL around 26mm, though the R3A is about 35mm and thanks to a built-in magnifier and separating the rangefinder from the viewfinder, the T is over 40mm

Cheers,

R.
 
I decided against the Zi in favor for a second M7. Very important to me is that on my second body I also can mount the 135 elmarit, have TTL flash and can mount a winder.
If I wouldn't need all this I'd go for the ZI because of its finder and the higher shutterspeed.
 
jonmanjiro said:
Hi Vincent, ok here goes :)

Off the top of my head here's what I don't like about the M7:

* The M7 viewfinder window and rangefinder window are flush with the front of the body so I'm constantly unconsciously putting finger prints on them, thus reducing viewfinder/rangefinder contrast and thus reducing ease of focusing. It's not an issue on the ZI because the viewfinder and rangefinder windows are recessed slightly from the front plate which prevents me putting finger prints on them (mostly).

* The M7 rangefinder patch doesn't have the same pop and clarity as the ZI rangefinder patch. It's very good, but not as good as a ZI. When the ZI is in focus, the focus patch is amazingly clear.

* In terms of rangefinder alignment, the M7 is more sensitive to eye position than the ZI. With the M7, I often wonder if vertical alignment has been knocked out of adjustment only to realise that my eye is above or below (usually below) the right viewing angle. This also affects the pop and clearness of the rangefinder patch.

* The M7 ISO reader/dial is a bit flaky. On my previous M7 with mechanical DX reader, the reader sometimes didn't read the DX code properly (rewinding the film rewind crank a little to tension the film fixed it). On my current M7 with optical DX reader, the ISO dial on the camera back is very sensitive to positioning. It also reads incorrectly for a moment or two if bumped. There's no such problem with the ZI because there is no DX reader and you set the ISO using the dial combined with the shutter speed dial.

* With the M7, a little dot constantly blinks in the finder if the ISO is set to a setting different from film ISO, or if you're using exposure compensation, or if the DX reader is being flaky. There is no such blinking dot in the ZI's finder if the ISO is set to something different from the film, or if exposure compensation is used, and the ZI doesn't have a DX reader to misbehave.

* The M7 metering pattern is like a big spot. I prefer the ZI's more traditional center weighted metering pattern.

* With the M7, you have to take care not to burn a whole in the shutter cloth. That's not a problem with the ZI's metal shutter.

The M7 is not all bad though. I actually prefer its film loading over the ZI and like the fact that the focus patch is always centered in the frame line regardless of focus distance.
Click to expand...

Jon, thanks for the thorough sharing of your experience with the M7. It is convincing enough to sway me towards a Zeiss Ikon.
 
I keep trying to talk myself out of one, but I really want to try film for the first time and I really want a rangefinder. So currently I'm getting one when I get home from Africa so I can have it for a 3 week trip to the Philippines lol....hopefully I don't talk myself out of it again!
 
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