I wonder-How did Leica manage that??

[jaapv]

I found some old photo books form my father dating back to the late forties and early fifties, the heyday of RF's, and it really set me wondering. Leica was still offering the IIIf, a jazzed-up thirties camera if you want to be unkind, and there they were: Contax IIIa: metal FP-shutter (!) fully integrated viewfinder-rangefinder, in-camera integrated light-metering, lenses as good as Leica up to 50 cm. Voigtlander Prominent: lenses that were considered better that Leitz or Zeiss, Compur rapid shutter with high-speed sync, integrated RF/VF, a reflexhousing that was more functional and more brilliant that the Visoflex 3 of 25 years later, in-camera coupled light-metering on later models,
Futura with integrated VF/RF at 40% of the price, Agfa Karat and Kodak Retina's that were more advanced and the Robot with its motordrive. The M3, in retrospect was underspecified when it came on the market 5 years later, Leica only offered in-camera metering 25 years later, etc. and still, and still, Leica managed to maintain its position of industry standard in RF. How did they shake off this competition?? 😕 😕

 

[rover]

It very well was reputation and focus in the market place. They were the original, and they only had one product. They also survived WWII in better condition, at least physically regarding their manufacturing capability, than many of (Zeiss) German competitors. Remember, Zeiss was the father company of Contax, Voigtlander and any other number of manufacturers who made 35mm RF cameras, all in different lens mounts. At one time Voigtlander was making multiple camera lines with different lens mounts themselves. Then think that MF cameras, TLRs and Folders still had strong positions in the marketplace, and were also manufactured by Leica's competition.

The M3 underspecified? It did lack 35mm framelines, but still perhaps offered the best VF/RF ever in a camera. Meter, unnecessary, these were expensive tools aimed at professional photographers and the wealthy. Leica, Contax.....these were not cameras that the common man could easily afford, a meter was not a missed feature.

Reputation, quality and focus, oh, and killer lenses starting wtih the Summicron 50 of 1954.

 

[RML]

Better marketing?

 

[wyk_penguin]

Did it occur to you that Leica is not a product but a religion? Makes you think how lomo could do the exactly opposite.

For the past 50 years, Leica camera had put all its efforts into 2 products (the M system and the R system). If that doesn't smell like perfection, nothing will (at least in 35mm).

 

[Sonnar Brian]

The M3 viewfinder is unsurpassed. The shutter is very quiet. And you had a wide choice in lenses.

1) ROBOT: 24x24 framesize; no RF
2) Retina: IIc/IIIc: front-cell replacement lenses 35mm and 80mm;
IIIS and S-Reflex: telephoto lenses lack close-focus
3) Voigtlander Prominent: Limited range of lenses; no fast tele's. And, have you ever used one? I love it; Extremely Quirky like "remember to cock shutter manually when using 1/500th; other speeds either cock manually or use the advance."
4) Contax: More expensive and VF/RF never imroved to match Leica, Nikon, Canon, Retina's, or even Nicca.

And in the end, all of the competition left to build SLR's.

 

[rover]

Add the fact that all of the competition packed up and went the way of the SLR shortly thereafter....

 

[jaapv]

.

1) ROBOT: 24x24 framesize; no RF

The Robot Royal had an integrated RF.

And in the end, all of the competition left to build SLR's.

So Leica rules by default? 😀 They tried to do that as well with the M4, again ages behind the competition 😉 - didn't work.

 

[jaapv]

Add the fact that all of the competition packed up and went the way of the SLR shortly thereafter....

Well, we did have the Praktina, the Practica and the Exacta Varex before that...

 

[jaapv]

Did it occur to you that Leica is not a product but a religion? Makes you think how lomo could do the exactly opposite.

For the past 50 years, Leica camera had put all its efforts into 2 products (the M system and the R system). If that doesn't smell like perfection, nothing will (at least in 35mm).

Look at my handle - if Leica is a religion, I'm one of the High Priests :angel:

 

[Sonnar Brian]

The Robot Royal had an integrated RF.


EDIT: I did not realize the Robot Royal came out that early, 1955. I remember ads for it in the '70s, Olden Camera, as new. The original Robot's were all square framesize, and no RF. Those, I have.

http://www.lumieresenboite.com/collection2.php?l=2&c=Berning_Robot_Royal_36

And to add: The ROBOT Royal 36 weighed Two pounds. My Little Star 50's are quite pleasant to hold.

 

[jaapv]

I have it in a book dated 1954, so it must have been on the market late 1953.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Okay: So here is the question: Of all the Rangefinder cameras produced and sold up to 1960, which do people feel is the most advanced?

I am going to throw my vote for the Nikon SP with Titanium Foil Curtains (1959 is usually given as the year of the change-over). I have to. It's my Duty.

 

[jaapv]

I would say Contax IIIa,(1951) Integrated VF/MF, metal FP shutter with extra brakes so no-jolt, built in coupled exposure meter, no moving knobs during exposure,wheel focussing, full sync.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

The meter of the Contax IIIa was "uncoupled", you move a dial to get the needle into position, read the settings, and then set the exposure. The meter on my IIIa still works.

The Kodak Retina IIIS has a coupled meter: set the shutter speed and F-stop to match the two needles. The IIIS also has framelines for 35-50-85-135 that are brought up automatically. And metal shutter. The behind-lens leaflet shutter puts some limits on the lenses; no fast telephoto's and no close focus on the Tele's. The 85/4 is limited to 5ft. The IIIS is quiet, in the same league as the Leica M3. The lenses are fully usable on the Retina S series Reflex cameras. I pack a Reflex-S and a IIIS in the same bag. The retail price of the IIIS with lens was under $190 when new; much less than Leica, Nikon, Contax, etc.

 

[jaapv]

I wouldn't mind owning -and using- any of the camera's mentioned above 🙂

 

[Sonnar Brian]

I don't have a Karat or Futura... Would not mind them either.

 

[VinceC]

I think usability is one reason Leica remained in business. Other cameras mentioned above may have piled on the features, but that didn't make them easier to use. Leica's focus on a single line certainly helped --- their survival depended on continue sales of Leica cameras and lenses. It was a market they pioneered and for several decades "owned" until competition set in.

Of the pre-1950 models, the Contax does seem the most modern design. But the M3 strikes me as more sophisticated than the Contax IIa/IIIa -- a much, much, much better viewfinder with brightlines that adjust for parallax. Faster flash sync (whole lot of photos in the 1950s/60s were flashed). The built-in meter on the IIIa would have been more attractive to a casual shooter, not a professional ... most professional photographers of that era knew how to judge light for black and white and relied on quality meters for color work, not an uncoupled on-camera sellenium cell. I read an article some years ago in which the interviewer was quizzing Henri Cartier-Bresson on light settings in the room, then using a hand-held meter to check Cartier-Bresson's estimates; he was dead on in his estimates. This isn't as hard as it sounds.

 

[furcafe]

For motor drive capability, that would have to be the Bell & Howell Foton (also the most advanced camera name 😛 ). It's really too bad that it has a squinty separate VF/RF (below even a pre-WWII Barnack Leica), though a better VF/RF would probably have meant an even larger camera. Also too bad they never offered any wides, as that would make it even better for street shooting. I keep toying w/the idea of consulting a tech to see if a 35/2.5 w-Nikkor (or a similar wide w/small rear element) could be adapted to Foton mount . . .

Okay: So here is the question: Of all the Rangefinder cameras produced and sold up to 1960, which do people feel is the most advanced?

I am going to throw my vote for the Nikon SP with Titanium Foil Curtains (1959 is usually given as the year of the change-over). I have to. It's my Duty.