rogerzilla
Well-known
...do you think s/h M9 prices will plummet like M8 prices did, or will they hold up because it's full frame?
I don't *want* an M9 - I'm happy with film - but I can see colour film and processing disappearing in the next decade (b/w film will probably go on for ever, since there has been no mass market for it since 1970 and most processing is done at home). There is, however, no way I can afford five grand for an M9 body although I could afford five hundred for an M3 or M2.
If pushed, I'd rather get an M9 and carry on with my existing lenses than dump it all for a Nikon D700 which isn't designed for MF, is an SLR, is far too big and is filled with zillions of exposure modes I don't want.
I don't *want* an M9 - I'm happy with film - but I can see colour film and processing disappearing in the next decade (b/w film will probably go on for ever, since there has been no mass market for it since 1970 and most processing is done at home). There is, however, no way I can afford five grand for an M9 body although I could afford five hundred for an M3 or M2.
If pushed, I'd rather get an M9 and carry on with my existing lenses than dump it all for a Nikon D700 which isn't designed for MF, is an SLR, is far too big and is filled with zillions of exposure modes I don't want.
Harry Lime
Practitioner
If I had $5000 laying around I would be looking for a good deal on an IMACON 848 or 949....
kzphoto
Well-known
Leica items tend to command a premium, no matter how old. I'd expect they'll plummet, but not too low.
I see the m8 around $1000, m8.2 $2k and the m9 around 3-4500 in about 2-4 years. Keep your M-lenses. They'll go up in value as more and more people jump on the M-wagon.
I see the m8 around $1000, m8.2 $2k and the m9 around 3-4500 in about 2-4 years. Keep your M-lenses. They'll go up in value as more and more people jump on the M-wagon.
randomm
Well-known
I got an X100 on loan last night and am already thinking of returning it. I've been without auto focus camera and a digital camera for almost a year now, and to be honest was surprised how let down I was last night after fiddling with the X100 for about an hour or two. I realised that the only way for a digital for me is to save up and get an M8 or few years down the line M9, or get some medium format back and a hassy or something like that.
I shoot both colour and B&W on film, but I have to admit that white balance can be a right PITA with colour and home development. I'd much rather deal with digital WB issues. So what I think will happen in my case is that I'll get an M8 for digital at some point, but continue to shoot B&W on my film gear.
I shoot both colour and B&W on film, but I have to admit that white balance can be a right PITA with colour and home development. I'd much rather deal with digital WB issues. So what I think will happen in my case is that I'll get an M8 for digital at some point, but continue to shoot B&W on my film gear.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Wishful thinking. 1000$ will just get you a Digilux2.
The M8 will keep hanging around 2000$ and the M8.2 about 2750$, the M9 is anybody's guess, but don't expect miracles below the 4500 $ mark.
The M10 will probably a wholly different camera with a CMos which will put a premium on the prices of the CCD-sensored Ms which many will find preferable.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Imacon is not my favorite company. Their long-term customer support is highly questionable. Just look at the way they sabotaged the DMR because of a corporate squabble....
Ronald M
Veteran
Home development has nothing to do with bad color unless your work habits are sloppy. I never had a problem until Unicolor changed their kit to make real contrasty negs. I changed to a German product, forget the name, or used Kodak chems without issue.
I ruined a whole bunch of vacation pics and a few other rolls before I called Unicolor and they said they new and improved it. You would think they would have said so on the package.
Got to admit though, a digi file straight from the camera is the cat`s meow. I can recommend a Nikon D7000 or D5100 as budget digi cams that make really nice files. Get a full frame model and the new 1.4 G lenses for near perfection. These models are big and heavy and noisy and not Leica like at all.
When Kodak goes under soon, I have no idea where color film will come from. Fuji quit their 160s which was their pro film. All the rest is amateur garbage.
I ruined a whole bunch of vacation pics and a few other rolls before I called Unicolor and they said they new and improved it. You would think they would have said so on the package.
Got to admit though, a digi file straight from the camera is the cat`s meow. I can recommend a Nikon D7000 or D5100 as budget digi cams that make really nice files. Get a full frame model and the new 1.4 G lenses for near perfection. These models are big and heavy and noisy and not Leica like at all.
When Kodak goes under soon, I have no idea where color film will come from. Fuji quit their 160s which was their pro film. All the rest is amateur garbage.
rogerzilla
Well-known
I find Reala to be perfectly good. Not sure about the others.
rxmd
May contain traces of nut
It seems completely pointless to me to fret about this sort of thing now. It's not like colour film will disappear next week.
You are not pushed. Or are you?
Why don't you just wait until whenever that happens if at all, and then get whatever digital rangefinder you can afford then?
I think it really depends on what the M10 is. If it is an entirely new camera and doesn't look like a classic M, then the M9 has a chance of holding some value. Also, the M10 may cost $10,000, so a $5,000 M9 might not seem so bad. However, if the M10 comes out and has great high ISO and keeps the familiar form factor and sells for $7,000... the M9 will go way down.
eleskin
Well-known
$10,000 M10?
$10,000 M10?
At 10K for an M10 with a new sensor and probably EVF technology, a full frame mirrorless camera similar to the NEX 7 makes more sense at a substantially lower price. Full frame is coming to the mirrorless cameras and I can see for $2,500 a full frame camera that will take M lenses and have superior high ISO. Leica , as far as digital, will be more seen by many as a great lens maker. Buying a similar camera for 10K because it has a red dot ranks high with the photo jewelry crowd, but for shooters, there is another more economically sound story!
$10,000 M10?
At 10K for an M10 with a new sensor and probably EVF technology, a full frame mirrorless camera similar to the NEX 7 makes more sense at a substantially lower price. Full frame is coming to the mirrorless cameras and I can see for $2,500 a full frame camera that will take M lenses and have superior high ISO. Leica , as far as digital, will be more seen by many as a great lens maker. Buying a similar camera for 10K because it has a red dot ranks high with the photo jewelry crowd, but for shooters, there is another more economically sound story!
swoop
Well-known
$7k was a stretch for the M9. If the M10 is released at $10k I'm done with Leicas. I love them. But I can adjust to autofocus real fast at that price.
And before they even think about an M10 they need to get those lenses out the door and be more than just unicorns you read about in Steve Huff's blog.
And before they even think about an M10 they need to get those lenses out the door and be more than just unicorns you read about in Steve Huff's blog.
jaredangle
Photojournalist
A good excuse to find a local community college that has a photo program... several schools have Imacon Flextights in the back of their photo labs, $300 for a semester long class and you can sneak back to the scanner whenever the photo lab is open and scan for free
Quite sad, actually... my college has the Imacon scanner, but it hasn't been used in probably 4+ years. Everyone uses the Epson flatbeds. We have Nikon 5000's and 9000ED's and those don't get used either (except by me when I'm making web previews of my film)
séamuis
Established
with the present state of kodak, is there any uncertainty as to what the imaging sensor in a possible M10 will be, and who will manufacture it?
swoop
Well-known
The only other company I know of that manufactures and sells sensors is Sony because the earlier Nikons had Sony sensors. I'm not sure where Panasonic gets theirs from. But if they make their own it could be a source since Leica already has a relationship with them.
tbarker13
shooter of stuff
I wouldn't call that wishful thinking. Eventually the M8 will drop to $1,000 and less. That's just the way technology works - regardless of who makes it. Now, how long that's going to take may be up for debate.
sojournerphoto
Veteran
I suspect therre is a fair degree of certainty about who will not manufacture it and a great deal of uncertainty about who will.
I discussed a digital Ikon with the Zeiss factory a few months ago and they said the issue was finding a sensor partner who could/would supply a suitably high quality sensor. The expectation for image quality (hate the term, but appropriate here) is very high and the partnership needs to work and be finanically viable. Leica may have more motivation to make it work, as they don't have an alternative to cameras, but there will be real difficulties to overcome. If dropping a Sony/Nikon or Canon full frame sensor into a drf body was easy someone would be building the M9 killer.
Glass Addict
Established
Eventually everything other than collectibles goes to zero... so there is no point in talking in terms of value over a long term. Sure M8 will eventually go down to $1000, and so will M9.
How fast the price drops is completely related to the value of M10. If starting price is out of reach and/or unreasonable for the majority of consumers, M9 may still hold value. That is unless there is a significant imrprovement in the technology. I personally don't consider EVF as part of one. I also don't consider XMP LCD screen to be in this category as well.
Unless M10 can somehow handle ultra high ISO's comparable to DSLR's with CCD sensors, I'm happy with an M9.
How fast the price drops is completely related to the value of M10. If starting price is out of reach and/or unreasonable for the majority of consumers, M9 may still hold value. That is unless there is a significant imrprovement in the technology. I personally don't consider EVF as part of one. I also don't consider XMP LCD screen to be in this category as well.
Unless M10 can somehow handle ultra high ISO's comparable to DSLR's with CCD sensors, I'm happy with an M9.
fotomeow
name under my name
Leica is too business savvy to let their products devalue quickly.
Sure the M2/M3s are going for $600-700, but they were may 50 years ago.
Even the Digilux 1 is worth a couple hundred bucks and its like a 1 MP camera! Digilux 2s are also becoming collectibles, and a couple years ago Leica replaced the sensors for FREE, to keep the customer base s/w happy.
The X1, at a slow f2.8, and out-camera'ed by the competition has its used market price still hovering around $1500+.
I think we are addressing the used PRICE of Leica bodies, vs the used VALUE of Leica bodies. In other words, the M8 will hold its own around $2000 for the foreseeable future. THen when the value starts to drop (but NEVER plummet), then Leica will throw in some incentive for M8 owners to keep the value of the camera from plummeting, and thus keep the Leica name from plummeting. They will do the same with the M9 as years pass, and so on and so forth. Leica has mastered how to control the value/price of their product based on simple supply/demand theoretics, and keeping the products up and running.
Sure the M2/M3s are going for $600-700, but they were may 50 years ago.
Even the Digilux 1 is worth a couple hundred bucks and its like a 1 MP camera! Digilux 2s are also becoming collectibles, and a couple years ago Leica replaced the sensors for FREE, to keep the customer base s/w happy.
The X1, at a slow f2.8, and out-camera'ed by the competition has its used market price still hovering around $1500+.
I think we are addressing the used PRICE of Leica bodies, vs the used VALUE of Leica bodies. In other words, the M8 will hold its own around $2000 for the foreseeable future. THen when the value starts to drop (but NEVER plummet), then Leica will throw in some incentive for M8 owners to keep the value of the camera from plummeting, and thus keep the Leica name from plummeting. They will do the same with the M9 as years pass, and so on and so forth. Leica has mastered how to control the value/price of their product based on simple supply/demand theoretics, and keeping the products up and running.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Consider: a stick-on EVF (call it a Visoflex IV
) would open up the possibility to use R lenses and it would provide the ultimate R solution - and a system crossover for those who still shoot R on the DMR.