If you were to buy your first Leica...

hello all,

my 2 cents:

at first it was a Canon P on some internet site that attracted me to the whole RF thing... poisionous beauty...um, and then i thought about a Bessa R2, which was then the current model... and then i stumbled on a Canon VI-L at a good price in a local store, which both the proprietor and i mistook as a P, it was fine until it broke down... and then i got a Canon L-1 as a replacement... but somehow it was that all manual M2 that i lust over all through the while.... and after a long research (lust build up) and the GAS kicked in and i got myself a M4 of 1968 vintage as a birthday present for myself... so that is my first M... almost a year after i first handle a M2 in a store for "fun".... it is easier to load and it is relatively more new than its precedors, and i was told the optics in M4's RF is less prone to seperation; but like they say, that filmsy rewind crank is the first thing to break! (US50 for a replacement!)

as for glass, it all started with a CV 35/1.7, and then i got a Canon 35/1.8 to replace it... it is smooth but... but there is always a "but"... i reckon it is lacking some bite... and so i sold it and just make do with the Canon 50/1.8 at the moment, its results are VERY nice

but it was that Canon 50/1.5 sonnar that i always thought i should get one and try it out one day

LTM lenses is just so nice and open up a lot of choices when one got a M body, you can go M and LTM... but then you start checking out those M lenses...

do these make sense?

cheers!

lee
 
I really wish there it were possible for a camera to have auto exposure controlled by an onboard meter taking incident readings from the direction opposite to that of the lens's view. Some inventor might design a photographer's beanie hat with incident light receptor on the back? :D But that wouldn't be particularly convenient... without, say, a Bluetooth wireless communication connection between the beanie and the camera!

Absent the above marvel, and absent auto exposure, I don't have much use for a camera's built-in meter. If I'm going to meter manually anyway, I'd rather use a hand-held incident meter which I think is much more effective. Only with the convenience and speed of AE, though, I'm willing to compromise on that metering effectiveness and embrace the built-in meter. I'm just impatient for that Bluetooth beanie to be invented... :)
 
I used to think that I couldn't live without a built in meter, so I bought a Bessa R2. Then I started using an M4 with a handheld incident meter. Now I find the little red arrows and green dot on the inside of my R2 distracting, and down right misleading if the camera isn't pointed at the "right area" (i.e. middle gray).

I also think that if you stick to one film for a while, meter handheld in order to learn what light corresponds to what settings, you can do pretty well with negative film and guessing if you're in a rush, e.g., on the street.

I often take an incident reading for the environment I'm in, set the camera, and then walk around. I make small adjustments to the settings such as if I walk into a slightly darker street or whatever. So you don't have to meter all the time.
 
M3, for two reasons (there are many others):

1 Once you've used a 1:1 finder like the M3 (or Bessa R3a for that matter), you will never be happy with anything else. The view is terrific, and the ability to shoot with both eyes open can often come in very handy.

2 It does not have a built-in meter. That's right. You will be doing yourself the biggest favour if you start to use your handheld or really learn sunny 16. The freedom of using the exposure meter in your head is exhilirating. You'll be shocked how accurate it is.

Good luck.

(OK, one more - they never built another like it until the MP, the film advance and shutter feel like silk)
 
I agree with a number of posts stating "don't need no stinkin' meter!". I too was terrified of not having a built in meter so I bought a M6TTL. Then was seduced into buying an M3 and now I use the M3 more than the M6--at least for B&W. I use the sunny 16 rule and it works! Really works! For slides-- I'm still a little gun shy--so I'll use the M6 for them.
 
My first, and only, Leica was an M3. No meter, and I made great exposures with it. In fact, I can't remember a (technically) bad exposure. How? I had learned how to make accurate exposures by simply knowing the right exposure... either by knowing in my head or using an external meter.

That said, there's nothing wrong with an M with a meter. If I were to go back to a Leica, I would strongly consider an M4-P or M7. But I won't. I really want the new ZI when it comes out.

Trius
 
I don't know Trius's motivations for desiring the Zeiss-Ikon RF cam, but it seems attractive to me too... I have hopes for Zeiss-level quality control at a modest price level, and AE, and what promises to be an impressive viewfinder. Medium magnification but a wide view. Longer baselength and better quality than the Bessa. When it finally materializes, I'm not certain to get one, but I'll be paying close attention. Might it match or exceed an M7?
 
Doug said:
I don't know Trius's motivations for desiring the Zeiss-Ikon RF cam, but it seems attractive to me too... I have hopes for Zeiss-level quality control at a modest price level, and AE, and what promises to be an impressive viewfinder. Medium magnification but a wide view. Longer baselength and better quality than the Bessa. When it finally materializes, I'm not certain to get one, but I'll be paying close attention. Might it match or exceed an M7?
Click to expand...

I would consider the Ikon; if it ever gets released ;)

But ya, for the price and if the quality is on par then I'd look at it as well - mainly because of the AE :D

That being said, I did see a recent M7 go on the bay for a little more than $1800 USD (this looked to be in excellent shape and was from a reputable seller - although they are a dealer - "Henrys" here in Toronto).

I think the thing that stops me from considering an M7 is price. Plain and simple - plus I've got my R3A that seems to work just fine for AE. For my first Leica though, I'm looking at either an M6 classic or perhaps an M4-P or M4-2.

Cheers
Dave
 
$1.8K is an excellent price for an M7. I too would be interested in the Zeiss-Ikon but only if the shutter were as quiet as the Leica's which by all accounts it is not. I just love this M7 I got, I've been using it about 1/2 auto and 1/2 manual and it is a joy to use. The main problem with the camera is that I like it so much I want another one. That won't happen till next year at the very earliest.

 
For the record I've owned both an M2 and M3 and found them identical. Both had age issues and the 35mm pre-lux flared. From the cameraquest website, he rates the M's viewfinders and find the M3 slightly better than the M2 and slightly behind the MP and M7. The M6 reportedly has flare problems.

I shoot mainly F100's ( having switched from F5's) and I'm shopping for a usable M2 or M3 body.

I've become addicted to my Sekonic and even meter with the F100, even with it's external meter in the LCD...

I loved both cameras and find metering with my Sekonic second nature and fast. Also there are clip on meters available.
 
FrankS said:
Just wondering, why would you want a ZI ?
Click to expand...
Frank: Just now saw your question, so I won't wait for the T.O. gathering to answer ... ;-)

First, the longer rangefinder base length. Second, the 28mm framelines and the way the viewfinder is set up in general.... I think. I'll have to handle one to see if I really like it.

Finally, the price. Of course, that's dependent on perceived build quality and hence my personal assessment of value.

That being said, not a lot has been said in this forum regarding the original M4. From what I've read on the web, it has smoother operation than the M4-2 and M4-P due to the brass gears.

Does anyone have an opinion on this from experience? What about general handling compared to an M3? Naturally the loading, rewind, etc., are different. But aside from those kinds of differences, what are your general impressions of the M4.

And what are the implications of long term use, since brass is softer than steel?

I know the original Midland M4s are not cheap due to their rarity. But if I ever happened on one at a good price, I'd be tempted. These seemed to be under-appreciated except for the scarcity.

Trius
 
Everyone will have their favorites. I think that a used M6 and Summicron of one generation ago represent one of the all time steals in photography at the moment. I don't think that one camera is right for every job, but if you are set on a rangefinder, this one will see you through an awful lot. If you see the world in wider terms, substitute a 35 Summicron for the 50.
 
I started with range finders with an M6 and a 35mm lens. I only used that combination for two years as I couldn't afford any more after such an outlay. It was the best thig I ever did when it comes to buying a camera. It was and is a joy to use. I now have a 50 mm and 90 lens, but the 35 keeps beckoning. You cannot go wrong with an M6 or for that matter an MP, which I am told is better engineered. (I wouldn't know.) But you will never regret the M6 or a 35mm lens.

Also if you are looking to save money, then look at second hand Konica Hexar RF. A wonderful camera in it's own right. It has a good range of Konica made lenses, but fits the Leica M series lenses anyway. I use my Leica lenses with it and sometimes the 50mmHexanon lens (Konica).

It doesn't have the accuracy of the range finder that the M6 has, and is fully electronic, so cannot be use when the battery is flat. (The M6 you can use without any battery as it is only for the internal meter.) But it does have some other useful features, so have a look.

I envy you as you will love discovering the M6 if you get one. believe me, it will be like coming home.
 
I am not very up on Liecas but I would go for whatever new one has a meter and is capable of total manual control if the battery fails and as long as I am fantasying I will take it in black with a handfull of lenses including the fastest wideangle they make.....
 
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Well, I'm new to RFs so, FWIW, my decision was easy. (Very little experience onboard to clutter my thinking ;-))

I have a Bessa R2A for the in-cam metering and AE (CV 35 and 75)

I have an M4 for keeping it simple (50 Cron, 90 TE, and just recently a Summarit)

I use the Leica more and the Bessa less and less.

Focal lengths - much more use of the 35 and 50.

Now the greatest part of my shooting (by volume) is youth sports with a digi cam, so when I'm out for myself I do crave the Leica for its simplicity. I trust my metering instincts pretty well, given the latitude of most neg films. I guess I could consolidate my RF kit by buying an M6 and selling the R2A and M4, but it's nice to have two in case of repairs, etc.
 
I am one of those who also favor the M5, I have two and really like their size and weight. Granted they are very unLeica like (the anti-Leica Leica) however the meter is excellent and the oversize shutter speed dial allows you to change the shutter speed without moving you eye from the finder.
Plus you can see the shutter speed in the finder as well.
I had an m3 for a short time and although it is in a class by itself mechanically, I could never get used to the .92 finder image. Shifting between a .72 m6 or m5 and the m3 was too complicated for me, and I also like to see more of what is outside of the frame as well.
Also I admit to being lazy and having an on board meter just makes things simpler.
Everyone has their own preferences, however they are all great cameras capable of making amazing images.
 
Don't take any weight suggestions of how silky smooth the old Ms are compared to the more recent ones. I for one think that observation is overrated at best. You'll find out for yourself it's really a novelty idea that doesn't affect the camera's picture taking ability in one way or another... It's much better to buy a newer unit than one that is 25 years older..
 
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My first, a gorgeous M3, bought here on RFF, and kick myself at least once a day for having to sell it! I now realize theres a lot of other crap I should have sold, but I found myself in NYC and getting broke, so, to Tamarkin it went, which also was unlucky, theyre great guys!, buttt about an hour before I walked in, they got literally the most gorgeous M3 they, and I, had ever seen haha, not only that, but a complete set, body, lenses, cases(s) strap, etc, like nothing had ever been touched! So right when he saw mine, which was in the best condition I had seen until then lol, we both laughed, mine was probably to hide the annoyance haha. But, c'est la vie!
 
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