IIIa black , conversion or real ?

[photovdz]

i own a very clean IIIa N°200377 ... wich is fine.. but it's a black one

I always thought it was a nice conversion, but my technician told me it looked very real indeed, no trace of chrome, and so on.

So my questions are :

Is there a list of the 800 black IIIa ? and how credible is that list ?
How could we spot the differences between a nice repainted model and a real black beauty ?

if a conversion was done ? how ?


Stephan


btw, I bought the thing for 100€ so no forgery or fake business is involved, bought to a user in spain... long family heritage... and so on.

 

[Erik van Straten]

Stephan, a conversion or not, there are quite some lovers of black Leica IIIa cameras in this forum. Can you show us a picture of your little jewel?

Erik.

 

[HuubL]

yes, pictures please!

 

[Dralowid]

Pictures would be a great help.

The existence of that batch of original black IIIa cameras is in some doubt so it would be great to find out more.

Michael

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

Interesting: there was supposed to have been a batch (of 800?) made in 1935 and so...

Regards, David

 

[Dralowid]

This serial number is 1936. The batch of 800 is quoted as being 1935.

It is alleged that this batch of serial numbers was put aside for black IIIa cameras but never used.

I am intrigued. I have never seen an 'original' black IIIa and trust me, I have been looking! As others may know I have a few in my collection but they are all conversions.

Stephan, you've whetted my appetite, I look forward to the pictures!

Michael

 

[photovdz]

and the pictures are coming

 

[photovdz]

new pictures

new pictures

et encore quelques photos

 

[Dralowid]

Stephan,

Sticking my neck out I think it is a repainted chrome camera.

Why do I say this?

1) the black finish is not the same as an original black Leica
2) all the fittings are chrome and I think black/chrome cameras are of a later date (not too sure about this)
3) the engraving appears to be filled with paint. A black camera with this serial number should have it filled with 'Woods Metal'.
4) (and this is stretching it a bit) the alleged batch of 800 black IIIa cameras were supposed to be for export. If that were the case the base would be in English.

I'm sure others will comment.

Very happy to be proved wrong and yes, it looks like a great camera!

Michael

 

[photovdz]

any way I bought it as a 1936 IIIa ... and I've always assumed it was a conversion...

but who knows...

as for the engravings... parts seems filled with woodsmetal (the leica logo) and the number looks more like paint...

one thing is sure it's an old conversion...

my main problem is that i don't have any other period black leica, except old n°1505 but it's too worn to compare anything... (see other thread, a very old one...)

 

[Erik van Straten]

The style ("font") of the engraved number looks very odd to me, the numbers are too big. It is possibly done by an independent (non-Leitz) Werkstätte. This is strange because Leitz had the policy of not selling top covers without receiving the original cover and not after having engraved the original number in the new part themselves.

I agree with Michael about the paint job and the chrome parts. It is however difficult to judge the paint work on photographs taken with a direct flash.

Erik.

 

[photovdz]

there is something bizarre with the numbers... the N° part seems ok but I think that the number itself has at least been repainted (or refilled with paint)

as for the black paint it's flat quite mate...

 

[Dralowid]

as for the black paint it's flat quite mate...

Yes, and the pre war black finish is a deep gloss. That's the bit that worried me.

Michael

 

[johannielscom]

Seems this is a repaint.

Original paint can look like that, but often that's what it looks like on surfaces on the camera that are handled a lot. If it looks like that over the whole surface, there's something else going on... But it's hard to tell with those pictures.

An atrractive camera either way!

 

[Dralowid]

Yes, leather cases can do strange things to the black paint but result is more 'mottled'.

 

[L David Tomei]

The white paint within the engraving struck me. The original was painted followed by engraving and then filled with metal called "wismut" (Woods metal is apparently another name used but I'm not familiar with it). This is a photo of my II(D) showing the way the engraving should appear. Leica stopped using this process after WWII or perhaps earlier. Because the engraving was performed through the black paint, the paint is weakened along the edge and often black Leicas of this vintage have paint peeling back around the engravings.

 

[photovdz]

now I can compare (where did I put my noflexar ?)

 

[photovdz]

and here is the comparison...

Logo looks almost normal, but numbers are heavily overpainted ?

 

[photovdz]

and some more...pictures

 

[L David Tomei]

I'm a spectator here on this one but I hope you get a satisfactory answer. I think the engraving is original Leica and the numbers have been refilled with white paint, perhaps after some factory work which included paint. Reconstructing history of these cameras is a minefield as we all have learned. David