Ikonta 521/2, Looking for serial number

[Bbsteinle]

I’ve just received a gorgeous Ikonta 521/2, which looks to be pre-WWII (f/3.5 Novar in Compur shutter, no flash synch). I’ve gone around and around the thing looking for the typical Zeiss Ikon alpha-numeric serial number, and am at a total loss. Can anyone help me out with the location? It’s not near the hinge and doesn’t seem to be inside. Many thanks!

 

[davhill]

Generally on the back next to the hinge... but you said you looked there. Any evidence it’s been re-covered? Does the back have the “Zeiss Ikon / Stuttgart” impression across the center?

 

[DwF]

Congratulations, wonderful cameras these are. By near the hinge, just to be clear, it is usually etched into the leather. If your lens is not coated, that is likely late thirties, assuming similar to the Tessar production. I had a 521/2 and really liked it, but sold it thinking I'd had it with 6x9 format and larger body (than say 645 or 521A). I have two others now, and one is a Zeiss 524/2 and i am really enjoying it. Have fun with it.

David

 

[drmatthes]

Is there a serial number on the outer rim of the Compur shutter like on my Nettar 515/2 which also has no serial number on the leatherette? In this case, you might want to look up the shutter production year here: http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Compur_serial_numbers

 

[Bbsteinle]

Ikonta 521/2, Looking for serial number

@davhill There is the Zeiss Ikon logo in the center of the back, 521/2 in the leather by the latch, but nothing by the hinge. I even shined a very bright light on it to look for a faint image, but nothing. Interestingly, there is a little glue overrun from the leather to the hinge, so maybe it has been recovered.

@DwF Thanks, I am excited to run a roll through it and see how it performs!

@drmatthes The Compur shutter serial number is 1469422, which according to camera-wiki, places the manufacture date about 1928. That is ten years before the 521/2 models were introduced. Well, it seems to still work!

 

[drmatthes]

@drmatthes The Compur shutter serial number is 1469422, which according to camera-wiki, places the manufacture date about 1928. That is ten years before the 521/2 models were introduced. Well, it seems to still work!

I was rather naive (it's the economy, stupid:bang: - see below), thinking that there would have been only one single serial numbering system for Compur shutters... You can find the probable solution here

http://knippsen.blogspot.com/2020/12/compur-seriennummer.html

(graphics and list readable in English). - There was an "old" and a "new" assignment. The "old" system would place your shutter to about 1931, and perhaps this sentence from the German text is an explanation for the strange chronological difference: Einen Dämpfer bekam dieser Boom durch die Weltwirtschaftskrise, die sich in Deutschland hauptsächlich im Jahr 1932 durch einem enormen Einbruch der Industrieproduktion manifestiert. - A setback to this [shutter production] boom was caused by the world economy crisis which in Germany manifested itself mainly by an enormous downturn in industrial production in 1932.

This, of course, would also mean a significant relative overproduction beforehand, and therefore it may very well be that 1938 camera models were still assembled from overproduction parts that had been on the shelf these seven years.

P.S.: Overlooked that you can read an English version on the webpage cited above by clicking the U.S. flag in the box on the right.

 

[drmatthes]

@davhill There is the Zeiss Ikon logo in the center of the back, 521/2 in the leather by the latch, but nothing by the hinge. I even shined a very bright light on it to look for a faint image, but nothing. Interestingly, there is a little glue overrun from the leather to the hinge, so maybe it has been recovered.

Zeiss Ikon changed the design of their brand logo, the "ZI achromat", from a sharp zigzag form of the letters "S" to their "normal" round form in 1936, so the stamped logo on your camera should have the rounded "S"s in "ZEISS". - I always keep wondering if this is to do with the 1936 Berlin Olympic games and the intention to make the ZI logo look less like the logo of the infamous SS, for the sake of not deterring foreign ZI customers.

 

[drmatthes]

Further musings about coarse ZI 120 folder dating, with pics

Further musings about coarse ZI 120 folder dating, with pics

Nettar 515/2 #1 Compur Rapid serial number - 4089148:

https://ibb.co/3f69WJw

Nettar 515/2 #2 Compur Rapid serial number - 4066381 (?):

https://ibb.co/80NNMLF

No ZI serial numbers on hinge rim leatherette, either!

Old ZI logo until 1936, zigzag letters "S" in ZEISS (Nettar 515/2):

https://ibb.co/TM7wQk4

New ZI logo after 1936 (from post-WW2 Nettar 518/16):

https://ibb.co/41VMwC2

Both the pre-WW2-Nettars have the Nettar Anastigmat 3.5 / 10.5 cm lenses (very sharp when stopped down!), but only in one case the lens name is marked with "quote" signs, and also only one ot the two bodies has a sliding cover over the red film window in the back. ZI changed things constantly...

So, whereas there doesn't really seem to be a clear connection between Compur (F. Deckel) shutter numbers and (ZI) camera assembly dates, at least my Compur Rapid numbers seem to be from 1936, matching the old version of the ZI logo exactly.

Furthermore, the situation becomes complicated by the additional fact that only ZI seems to have got the batch of Compur Rapid serial numbers below 5.000.000. So, in fact there are not two but three partly parallel Compur numbering systems, as can clearly be seen on the webpage mentioned by me above:

http://knippsen.blogspot.com/2020/12/compur-seriennummer.html#

Very confusing indeed!😱

 

[Bbsteinle]

Interesting! Thanks for posting that.

 

[drmatthes]

We're not the only folks discussing that: http://forum.mflenses.com/compur-shutter-serial-numbers-and-dates-t16246.html

Thank you for putting me into this!

 

[drmatthes]

On the story goes. I just found a Nettar 516/2 for sale on the German 'bay:

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Zeiss-Ikon-...133751828032?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10

Pictures are excellent. Serial Number is L69326 which puts the body to 1939, but Compur shutter SN is 1456552 which should be within the 1929-1931 year range, regardless of assignment system. Very similar to what you have seen on your Ikonta as well.

This seems sound evidence with respect to the economy theory.

 

[drmatthes]

They have clearly been clearing shutter overstocks at ZI

They have clearly been clearing shutter overstocks at ZI

Next example, even closer to yours. Ikonta 521/2, Novar Anastigmat 3,5 / 10,5 cm in Compur Shutter. ZI serial number not visible, but "ZEISS" with rounded - after 1936 - "S"s (picture 3), and Compur shutter SN 1378892 (picture 7) - between 1928 and 1931, regardless of assignment system:

https://www.ebay.de/itm/124512525831

Seems to have been routine practice in clearing shutter (over-)stocks.

 

[Bbsteinle]

That last example is nearly identical to mine. Similar asking price too. Great detective work @drmatthes!